Well, one = of the problems with pragmatic determinations is that they don't always wor= k (but neither do semantic, which just fail less often). So, yes, we = , as hearer, can sometimes not tell, but our response will eith= er make the question irrelevant (if we pick just one of p and q) or will di= splay the answer (if pand q are both excepted or not). But arguing fr= om questions is a bit tricky, since a question is the set of its licit answ= ers (the usual line of chat), the "or" here is neither XOR or OR, since "ne= ither" is a licit answer. In some cases, but not, for example, if it = is Mommy asking at the dinner table: "neither" is out, "both" is encouraged= , but not expected. On the other hand, if the asker is a waitress in a rest= aurant, "both" is likely to be exclude ("with a choice of peas or carrots") but "neither is acceptable.

Nice to see a= little logic around the logical language.

gut shabb= as!

From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.c= om>
To: lojban@goog= legroups.com
Sent: Fr= iday, March 16, 2012 5:35 PM
Subj= ect: Re: [lojban] Re: Rhetoric and Oratory, "the fruit of Arabic= "

O= kay, what he meant here was the line in the table where A is true and B is = true (11), but switching the context from columns to lines). He's saying that in En= glish you can tell from context whether or not "or" is meant to include "an= d" or not (although I would argue that it's not _always_ decidable from con= text) ("niff" meaning the "not (opposite of) if and only if", which is the = equivalent of xor.) If you say "We can go to the movies or the zoo to= morrow", we can assume not both. But if you say "would you like carro= ts or peas with that?" it's not so clear if "both" is an option or not.

--gejyspa, o= ff for shabbat... bye all

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Jonathan Jones &= lt;eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote= :

Ah, yes, this still doesn't exp= lain what the "the elimination of the <11> line" bit meant.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Agreed.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:06 PM= , MorphemeAddict <ly= tlesw@gmail.com> wrote:

Not just clearer, but excellently done.

stevo
=

On Fri, Mar = 16, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
What he= is saying is a relationship let's call it "%" between two statements, A an= d B, can be represented in the following way:
A B A%B
Tr= ue True
True False
False True
= False False

Now, how do = we fill in that last column? Well, in the case of inclusive or, it's = True, True, True, False. In the case of Exclusive Or, it's False, Tru= e, True, False.

Now, since the first two columns are always in a= standard order, we don't really need to talk about them. We can just= say that "A inclusive or B" is "True, True, True, False" and A xor B is " False, True, True, False. ". And to be really compact, we can su= bstitute T or F for True and False, making them "TTTF" and "FTTF" respectiv= ely. Or we can use "1" for true, and "0" for false, yielding "1110" a= nd "0110". Clearer?

--gejyspa

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:05 P= M, Jonathan Jones <e= yeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

Doesn't mean it makes sense to me.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 1:03 PM, ianek &l= t;janek37@gmail.com> wrote:=

He's speaking thruth tables.

On 16 Mar, 19:34, Jonathan Jones <eyeo= ...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no idea what that means.
>

> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:07 AM, John E. Clifford <kali9pu...@yahoo.com>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "or" in English (and logic, where we are supposed to be) is <1= 110>. It's
> > apparent use for niff/xor, <0110> is determined pragmatical= ly by the
> > elimination of the <11> line in context.
>
> > Sent from my iPad
>

> > On Mar 16, 2012, at 7:41 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Or" is not often ambiguous in context.
>
> > stevo
>

> > On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Jonathan Jones < = <eyeo...@gmail.com>
> > eyeo...@gmail.com> wro= te:
>
> >> "or" in English (not logic) is ambiguous as to whether it mea= ns .a or
> >> .onai., so it doesn't count.
>

> >> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:12 PM, John E. Clifford = <<kali9pu...@yahoo.com&g= t;
> >> kali9pu...@yahoo.com<= /a>> wrote:
>
> >>> Speaking as a logician and thus a sort of mathematician, = I note that
> >>> "or" is shorter. XOR is, of course, xor.
>
> >>> Sent from my iPad
>

> >>> On Mar 15, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Jonathan Jones < &l= t;eyeo...@gmail.com>

> >>> eyeo...@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
>
> >>> I like to distinguish between xor and and/or, because Eng= lish is
> >>> ambiguous as to which is meant. "a/o" is just the shortes= t possible way to
> >>> say .a
>

> >>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, MorphemeAddic= t < <lytl...@gmail.com><= lytl...@gmail.com>
> >>> lytl...@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>
> >>>> Oh. Of course.
>
> >>>> stevo
>

> >>>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:05 PM, John E Cliffor= d <<kali9pu...@yahoo.com&= gt;<kali9pu...@yahoo.com&g= t;
> >>>> kali9pu...@ya= hoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> andor, i.e. or
>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>> *From:* MorphemeAddict < <lytl...@gmail.com> <lytl...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> lytl...@gmail.c= om>
> >>>>> *To:* <lojban@googlegroups.com> <lojban@googlegroups.com>
> >>>>> loj= ban@googlegroups.com
> >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:21 PM
> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: Rhetoric and Oratory,= "the fruit of

> >>>>> Arabic"
>
> >>>>> What does "a/o" mean? From the context it seems t= o mean 'in or about'.
> >>>>> Googling didn't help.
>
> >>>>> stevo
>

> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Jonat= han Jones < <eyeo...@gmail.com&= gt;<eyeo...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> eyeo...@gmail.c= om> wrote:
>
> >>>>> I really wish buroq would just stick to Arabic a/= o Lojban. I can never
> >>>>> understand his English. I'm betting Google Transl= ate used on his Arabic
> >>>>> would even give better English, and that's saying= something.
>

> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Muham= mad an-Nuqrashi <<muham= mad.n...@gmail.com><muhammad.n...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> muh= ammad.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> Buroq usually omitted the 'be' copula in many pla= ces where in Arabic a
> >>>>> 'be' verb/copula isn't needed... This goes on tru= e with adjectives,
> >>>>> placement and presence of the/a, etc... I basical= ly took the meanings of
> >>>>> his words and put them in Arabic ignoring the syn= tax and grammar he used...
> >>>>> I ended up with a pretty understandable Arabic pi= ece and I added some bits
> >>>>> of my own after translation...
>
> >>>>> MN
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google
> >>>>> Groups "lojban" group.

> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to <lojban@googlegroups.com>= <lojban@googlegroups.com= >

> >>>>> lojban@googlegroups.com.
> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >>>>> <lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m><lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >

> >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >>>>> For more options, visit this group at

> >>>>> <http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den><http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den>

> >>>>>http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.lu= k. mi patfu do zo'o
> >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D= )
>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google
> >>>>> Groups "lojban" group.

> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to <lojban@googlegroups.com>= <lojban@googlegroups.com= >

> >>>>> lojban@googlegroups.com.
> >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >>>>> <lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m><lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >

> >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >>>>> For more options, visit this group at

> >>>>> <http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den><http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den>

> >>>>>http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google
> >>>>> Groups "lojban" group.

> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to <lojban@googlegroups.com>= <lojban@googlegroups.com= >

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> >>>>>http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google
> >>>>> Groups "lojban" group.

> >>>>> To post to this group, send email to <lojban@googlegroups.com>= <lojban@googlegroups.com= >

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> >>>>>http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed = to the Google
> >>>> Groups "lojban" group.

> >>>> To post to this group, send email to <lojban@googlegroups.com><= lojban@googlegroups.com&g= t;

> >>>> lo= jban@googlegroups.com.
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

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> >>>>http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> >>> --
> >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pa= tfu do zo'o
> >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
> >>> Groups "lojban" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to <lojban@googlegroups.com>

> >>> = lojban@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >>> <lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

> >>> .
> >>> For more options, visit this group at
> >>> <http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den>

> >>>http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google
> >>> Groups "lojban" group.
> >>> To post to this group, send email to <lojban@googlegroups.com>

> >>> = lojban@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >>> <lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>= ;

> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >>> For more options, visit this group at
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> >>>http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl= =3Den.
>
> >> --
> >> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu = do zo'o
> >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups
> >> "lojban" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to <lojban@googlegroups.com>
> >> lojban@googlegr= oups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >> <lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >> <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?h= l=3Den>

> >>http://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> > --
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>
> > --
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>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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