Received: from mail-ob0-f189.google.com ([209.85.214.189]:56348) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1S8wF1-0000MC-HM; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:12:38 -0700 Received: by obbup19 with SMTP id up19sf171659obb.16 for ; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:12:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:reply-to :subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=NuQVq5gNSj6Gg7s30M7uJw37vg6W9WwE1duF0+bA7lw=; b=YnZ0ywWAYvwWGNmuQDU9Q8pNxLb6OV3PKh+4wDpPUbIdp/Weg25mhohDjtNLIJrctj MrdHhVG0DFoNHoVDN2Vh+lg8GlKyV9lJ7NojOeiL5XANHsGNvPwwaPMLmPHLXbCpRPpm +2oH+UYxRfxnuvkqVkwQWAIL8xY2hStUu0E3c= Received: by 10.68.243.208 with SMTP id xa16mr1861458pbc.5.1332000018225; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:00:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.0.72 with SMTP id 8ls14698813pbc.1.gmail; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.231.138 with SMTP id tg10mr2443418pbc.7.1332000017728; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.231.138 with SMTP id tg10mr2443415pbc.7.1332000017704; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm3.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm3.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com. [98.139.91.73]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id 6si9588624pbg.2.2012.03.17.09.00.17; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 09:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.91.73 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.91.73; Received: from [98.139.91.68] by nm3.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2012 16:00:17 -0000 Received: from [68.142.200.224] by tm8.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2012 15:59:16 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.124] by t5.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2012 15:59:16 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1029.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2012 15:59:16 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 420094.93686.bm@omp1029.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 59906 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Mar 2012 15:59:16 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: TEOTzAYVM1m7eZkqL9EqZVRG2jNKZj8NQ3t56.B1heZEJsM zprJtT0ZfLZRYhIFokh4FgRwE5kiiOdmk53.EDVtKNUGOQHaF2Q6BX3e0oT_ Rvg8z3TasWnpBUZlLjTFw9LY9HOXgd2dkr2TWDX7JFKiwkCGVPaa7ubPYx5z UG0O0_81oM9gDXFmb4ZIDEFW773Emp_Lib0EHHq42CZoakU6VlaYEc3f2Y9H 1CC85LirjISG85Hcu1JN1try0KvVHig0td_QIWwx3.pdhirMN9dR77TVR.S3 M432kQQ6i2Qyr6fzN536KvGRbY3mGppR7KhogFG7aUcwuGoyvTLY9_ZcrhBO 1CKhdNUOK8fmVH8SAvaMe6Yh7CUrjWFIVt5bdJ0wIL6SYUx9KeDGZnZBTJtB dIj_Ub4nhfHms6yVO8toWe1jT9WX5p0Ya8bary1LwOdr3ToUgzPTXWasIdlJ zNkRc0it1liu6WNFqV..c3sRKdSOmnj2BZ53iRQNktsPnYfrRxU4jqQSoAM7 4GtmQciTrD4wfZwBEPM28N1o4bl71ir9.TfczUXW2yVpyA7SOH_8.OGoB8E1 7VYyAFh_HY17VoRcTUq8- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 17 Mar 2012 08:59:15 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.116.338427 References: Message-ID: <1331999955.56355.YahooMailNeo@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 08:59:15 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Equivocal tanru To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.91.73 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="931067830-186467562-1331999955=:56355" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --931067830-186467562-1331999955=:56355 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, you can't be ambiguous in one sense (the one I take you to mean), bec= ause Lojban has default grouping to the right, so XYZ is automatically X(YZ= ), so If you want to say something that might be either "a pretty school fo= r girls" and "a school for pretty girls", you can't, officially. You have, = unofficially, two outs.=A0 1) The nature of the bond between modifier and m= odified=A0 is unspecified, so it can almost as easily be that X characteriz= es all the Y in Z as X characterizes Z (insofar as) containing Y.=A0 2) Peo= ple are sloppy, even in logic, so XYZ may be understood, despite what is sa= id, as (XY)Z, based on context or inflection or whatever.=A0 So the unmarke= d form is at least pragmatically ambiguous (standard logic game: until we h= ave a thoroughly developed pragmatics, we can push all our problem case off= on it, cf. God). ________________________________ From: Escape Landsome To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 9:04 AM Subject: [lojban] Equivocal tanru =20 I asked some question which was not understood, so I ask it anew : a tanru X Y is some Y that has X-ness.=A0 it is not "X and Y" (unless we play with the predicativity of X and Y), rather it is one Y, but with X semantic coloration. If I want to speak about a X Y Z, that is, either a Z which is somewhat like a X Y (in the tanru sense above), or a Y Z that is like a X, --- but keeping myself deliberately equivocal, how do I proceed ? The way Lojban does seems to compel me to disambiguate, but what if I WANT TO REMAIN AMBIGUOUS ? How do I say "little girls' school" in lojban WHEN I WANT TO REMAIN AMBIGUO= US ? -- Please consider not this as a mere amusement of myself...=A0 If we want to translate old books of yore in Lojban, we'll have to remain equivocal with some "X's Y's Z" phrases, BECAUSE the books in which they are written are equivocal themselves=A0 (and we ought not to desambiguate things that are ambiguous). --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --931067830-186467562-1331999955=:56355 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, you = can't be ambiguous in one sense (the one I take you to mean), because Lojba= n has default grouping to the right, so XYZ is automatically X(YZ), so If y= ou want to say something that might be either "a pretty school for girls" a= nd "a school for pretty girls", you can't, officially. You have, unofficial= ly, two outs.  1) The nature of the bond between modifier and modified=   is unspecified, so it can almost as easily be that X characterizes a= ll the Y in Z as X characterizes Z (insofar as) containing Y.  2) Peop= le are sloppy, even in logic, so XYZ may be understood, despite what is sai= d, as (XY)Z, based on context or inflection or whatever.  So the unmar= ked form is at least pragmatically ambiguous (standard logic game: until we= have a thoroughly developed pragmatics, we can push all our problem case off on it, cf. God).


= From: Escape Landsome <= ;escaaape@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Se= nt: Saturday, March 17, 2012 9:04 AM
Subject: [lojban] Equivocal tanru

I asked some question which was not understood, so I ask it anew :

a= tanru X Y is some Y that has X-ness.  it is not "X and Y" (unlesswe play with the predicativity of X and Y), rather it is one Y, but
wit= h X semantic coloration.

If I want to speak about a X Y Z, that is, = either a Z which is
somewhat like a X Y (in the tanru sense above), or a= Y Z that is like
a X, --- but keeping myself deliberately equivocal, ho= w do I proceed ?

The way Lojban does seems to compel me to disambigu= ate, but what if I
WANT TO REMAIN AMBIGUOUS ?

How do I say "littl= e girls' school" in lojban WHEN I WANT TO REMAIN AMBIGUOUS ?

--
<= br>Please consider not this as a mere amusement of myself...  If we wa= nt
to translate old books of yore in Lojban, we'll have to remain
equ= ivocal with some "X's Y's Z" phrases, BECAUSE the books in which
they ar= e written are equivocal themselves  (and we ought not to
desambiguate things that are ambiguous).

--
You received = this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group= .
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.co= m.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit thi= s group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



<= /div>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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