Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:50515) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SAvp7-00020K-TH; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:10:05 -0700 Received: by yenm3 with SMTP id m3sf3567104yen.16 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:09:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dX3XfM0U/XCw19dcXUT+zqDCrNathIDsECWvAdcBDMw=; b=T6bXwmFPRPjC/K8SAol4rUVhYKN52Ivpr6NX8fOqpmvfYlP4T/X5JEJiHpir3Hv0I0 D7txROm5wg6boeQWe7iAT49UivTN2VGtaWv8XR8vu1evkoBlFpfuEkXpNcnUrEiGDU9i IfjWErNXJk51eAlovXojvcuC5Phohytyt2x3U= Received: by 10.52.72.72 with SMTP id b8mr1325093vdv.19.1332475783141; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.88.105 with SMTP id bf9ls1594337vdb.8.gmail; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.35.50 with SMTP id e18mr1536807vdj.5.1332475782428; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.35.50 with SMTP id e18mr1536806vdj.5.1332475782412; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vb0-f42.google.com (mail-vb0-f42.google.com [209.85.212.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p9si2208322vdv.0.2012.03.22.21.09.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.42; Received: by vbjk13 with SMTP id k13so1354249vbj.15 for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.29.244 with SMTP id n20mr4063639vdh.22.1332475782309; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:09:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.30.97 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:09:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201203222325.42982.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201203222325.42982.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Jacob Errington Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 00:09:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Translating preposition To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307f348cad269104bbe131ab X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --20cf307f348cad269104bbe131ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > No. "cmavo" has a fourth place for the language. I could say "zoi gy. and .gy. > mintu zoi .gy. or .gy. enai zoi .gy. if .gy. lo ka ce'u cmavo makau fo lo > glico". Ah the elusive places that I forget. Very fair point. Then, it seems to me like a preposition is simply a [cmavo je tcita], where tcita2 can be various things like a verb, [selbri], a noun, [sumti], or an adjective, [selbri] too I guess. (Would [seltau] be more appropriate? I mean, the gloss for [tanru] is "phrase compound". Isn't "enraged blue dream" a "phrase compound" as well?) Using [cmavo] has the advantage of getting at cmavo2, the class. I figure that we can group non-lojban cmavo, i.e. prepositions/other structure words, too, into classes. I don't think however that many (at least for English) would have the cmavo2-ability of being interchangeable under all circumstances, maintaining syntactical coherence. Thoughts? mu'o mi'e la tsani On 22 March 2012 23:25, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Thursday, March 22, 2012 19:03:04 Sid wrote: > > I dunno; it's just kinda weird to use the word to describe non-Lojban > > stuff. I do think that sumtcita are like adpositions, just think it's > > better to make a new word for the general language concept. > > There is a place for language-specific grammatical terms (e.g. "nif`al, > hitpa`el, etc." are Hebrew verb forms resembling voices, and make some > sense > in other Semitic languages, but no sense out of Afro-Asiatic). This is not > one > of them. Members of BAI, and tense markers when not directly before the > selbri, act just like prepositions except that the complement can be > dropped > (as in the notice on jbovlaste "ca farvi gau"), so they are prepositions. > (I'm > looking at the Wikipedia article, which lists four criteria. The third is > vacuous in Lojban.) > > I think that even brivla and cmevla can be called verbs and nouns, so one > can > say "Most common nouns are expressed as verbs in Lojban". Verbs have > arguments, just as brivla have sumti. I wouldn't call a sumti a noun > phrase, > as usually it doesn't contain a noun; it's either a determiner phrase, or a > pronoun, or some other things like a quoted phrase. > > On Thursday, March 22, 2012 20:21:35 Jacob Errington wrote: > > Would it be bad to call an adposition, even from another language, a > cmavo? > > No. "cmavo" has a fourth place for the language. I could say "zoi gy. and > .gy. > mintu zoi .gy. or .gy. enai zoi .gy. if .gy. lo ka ce'u cmavo makau fo lo > glico". > > Pierre > -- > ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf307f348cad269104bbe131ab Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > No. "cmavo" has a fourth place for the language. I could say= "zoi gy. and .gy.
> mintu zoi .gy. or .gy. enai zoi .gy. if .gy= . lo ka ce'u cmavo makau fo lo
> glico".=A0

Ah the elusive places that I forget. Very fair point.
Then, it se= ems to me like a preposition is simply a [cmavo je tcita], where tcita2 can= be various things like a verb, [selbri], a noun, [sumti], or an adjective,= [selbri] too I guess. (Would [seltau] be more appropriate? I mean, the glo= ss for [tanru] is "phrase compound". Isn't "enraged blue= dream" a "phrase compound" as well?)

Using [cmavo] has the advantage of getting at cmavo2, t= he class. I figure that we can group non-lojban cmavo, i.e. prepositions/ot= her structure words, too, into classes. I don't think however that many= (at least for English) would have the cmavo2-ability of being interchangea= ble under all circumstances, maintaining syntactical coherence.

Thoughts?

mu'o mi'e la= tsani

On 22 March 2012 23:25, Pierre Abb= at <phma@phma.op= tus.nu> wrote:
On Thursday, March 22, 201= 2 19:03:04 Sid wrote:
> I dunno; it's just kinda weird to use the word to describe non-Loj= ban
> stuff. I do think that sumtcita are like adpositions, just think it= 9;s
> better to make a new word for the general language concept.

There is a place for language-specific grammatical terms (e.g. "= nif`al,
hitpa`el, etc." are Hebrew verb forms resembling voices, and make some= sense
in other Semitic languages, but no sense out of Afro-Asiatic). This is not = one
of them. Members of BAI, and tense markers when not directly before the
selbri, act just like prepositions except that the complement can be droppe= d
(as in the notice on jbovlaste "ca farvi gau"), so they are prepo= sitions. (I'm
looking at the Wikipedia article, which lists four criteria. The third is vacuous in Lojban.)

I think that even brivla and cmevla can be called verbs and nouns, so one c= an
say "Most common nouns are expressed as verbs in Lojban". Verbs h= ave
arguments, just as brivla have sumti. I wouldn't call a sumti a noun ph= rase,
as usually it doesn't contain a noun; it's either a determiner phra= se, or a
pronoun, or some other things like a quoted phrase.

On Thursday, March 22, 2012 20:21:35 Jacob Errington wrote:
> Would it be bad to call an adposition, even from another language, a c= mavo?

No. "cmavo" has a fourth place for the language. I could sa= y "zoi gy. and .gy.
mintu zoi .gy. or .gy. enai zoi .gy. if .gy. lo ka ce'u cmavo makau fo = lo
glico".

Pierre
--
ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji

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