Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:54313) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SB6Wi-0007VP-I2; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:35:46 -0700 Received: by qcsq5 with SMTP id q5sf2143233qcs.16 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:35:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=o/jLta9afjimH5AlxjsbpoHf5hO25FfGcd3h52br5d8=; b=lmRyoB37SzQrSEZtENXPv8Wv/GJJXYkoJyj9+n4wd5nagqQgUEj9/VORpC9HxwQ7jA 8iLb27vGi3t8+nNSSp5Vs+gV6PpE0XU/6GXIyqBcMpqg/3vybMu14c58Y96/h8T70rjp /y0XyAKD3A5Kop40uEX96F3+LnBS4SaM42WHY= Received: by 10.68.194.101 with SMTP id hv5mr2457477pbc.2.1332516925616; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:35:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.223.72 with SMTP id qs8ls10863843pbc.6.gmail; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.130.68 with SMTP id oc4mr2460641pbb.11.1332516924758; Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:35:23 -0700 (PDT) From: RexScientiarum To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <32721985.104.1332516923769.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjd4> In-Reply-To: References: <29003828.512.1332467486180.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbhy1> Subject: Re: [lojban] Have you guys heard of eSpeak? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: amt2839@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of amt2839@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=amt2839@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_103_16764189.1332516923766" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_103_16764189.1332516923766 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable lol, okay, I meant 'pause'. Clearly I am a noob in linguistics, I find it= =20 endlessly fascinating though. I just thought it would make it sound more= =20 natural to have a pause at the beginning of a paragraph. Anyway, so is the= =20 eSpeak a pretty good text to speech program? I have used it a few time to= =20 help with pronounciation. On Friday, March 23, 2012 2:32:01 AM UTC-4, aionys wrote: > > I wasn't talking to you. I was responding to what you said, yes, but you= =20 > weren't my intended audience. > > On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Jacob Errington wro= te: > >> Er.. I know that, and I've already read the case against LA. Also, I did= =20 >> mention it in my post: >> *that's if you adhere to dotside. If not, you can omit the pre-stop=20 >> under certain circumstances: the word is preceded by [la] or [doi], whic= h=20 >> under non-dotside are forbidden to appear in the cmevla itself. * >> >> Dotside is great. Forbidding certain syllables is kind of silly, just to= =20 >> save a pause. >> >> mu'o mi'e la tsani noi ca'edai co'a morsi zo'o >> >> >> On 23 March 2012 02:08, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jacob Errington wr= ote: >>> >>>> Only words beginning with vowels, that aren't cmevla (which require=20 >>>> pauses on both sides) require a pre-stop. >>>> [.i] requires a pause because it is vowel-initial. >>>> [ni'o] does not; it is consonant-initial. >>>> [.djeikyb.] requires two pauses, one before, one after; it is a cmevla= .=20 >>>> (of course, that's if you adhere to dotside. If not, you can omit the= =20 >>>> pre-stop under certain circumstances: the word is preceded by [la] or= =20 >>>> [doi], which under non-dotside are forbidden to appear in the cmevla= =20 >>>> itself.) >>>> >>>> By "pause", please understand that it's not necessarily the complete= =20 >>>> stopping of sound production. The "glottal stop" and the "no sound" so= unds=20 >>>> are valid for [.] in Lojban, and therefore [.] may have a sound. >>>> >>>> If you're a fervent believer in audio-visual isomorphism, which=20 >>>> according to some is already false for Lojban, you should write the pe= riod=20 >>>> everywhere it would be spoken. If you're lazy, you can omit the period= in=20 >>>> all places where it may be unambiguously inferred: before a vowel-init= ial=20 >>>> word and after a consonant-final word. It cannot be unambiguously infe= rred=20 >>>> that there is a pause before a consonant-final word. In particular, th= e " "=20 >>>> character can be a pause as well as it may not be, therefore in [la=20 >>>> djeisyn], there are two interpretations: the sumti [la .djeisyn.] and = the=20 >>>> name [ladjeisyn]. Therefore, it is best to always begin cmevla with a= =20 >>>> pause, no matter the circumstances. >>>> >>> >>> One of the very few advantages of not using Dot-Side is that {la=20 >>> djeisyn} can only be the sumti {la.djeisyn.}. The difference between=20 >>> Dot-Side and not side is simply that in Dot-Side all names must begin w= ith=20 >>> denpabu (".") as well as end with it, but "la", "lai", and "doi" are=20 >>> allowed within names, whereas in nonDS, consonant-beginning names do no= t=20 >>> require a leading denpabu /when preceded by those cmavo/ (they are requ= ired=20 >>> at all other times, however, such as in {mi'e.kritcan.} or=20 >>> {coi.kristcan.}), but the aforementioned syllables are /not/ allowed wi= thin=20 >>> the name. >>> >>> The reason behind the Dot-Side proposal, BTW, is that absolutely no=20 >>> jbopre have been able to follow the nonDS prohibited syllable rule-=20 >>> everyone at least once has accidentally used one of those syllables,=20 >>> usually "la", in a name. >>> >>> Simply put, Dot-Side came around because completely forbidding those=20 >>> syllables in a name- a rule we can't even apparently follow anyway- doe= sn't=20 >>> seem worth the minor advantage of not needing to pause between the name= and=20 >>> three cmavo, especially when one of those cmavo is a very common syllab= le=20 >>> in names. >>> >>> If anyone's interested in the full argument regarding Dot-Side, you can= =20 >>> read the proposal that started the whole Dot-Side thing here:=20 >>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/=E2=80=8BThe+Case+Against+LA >>> =20 >>> >>>> Of course, if you're all-around lazy like me, you can just never write= =20 >>>> the pauses: no one will try to kill you (at least I hope). >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e la tsani >>>> >>>> On 22 March 2012 23:02, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>> >>>>> There is no stop in {ni'o}. If there were a stop, there would be a ".= ". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 7:51 PM, RexScientiarum wr= ote: >>>>> >>>>>> I downloaded eSpeak when I learned it did text to speech for lojban.= =20 >>>>>> It seems nearly flawless (to me, but I am just learning), the only = thing I=20 >>>>>> can tell is wrong with it is that it doesn't put a stop in at {ni'o}= ...=20 >>>>>> still it does with {.i}. I assumed everyone knew about it but I hav= en't=20 >>>>>> seen it mentioned anywhere so I thought I'd mention it. Is=20 >>>>>> its pronunciation accurate?=20 >>>>>> >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit=20 >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/=E2=80=8Bmsg/lojban/-/QHSarDiuih4J >>>>>> . >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@=E2=80=8Bgooglegroups.com >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at=20 >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/=E2=80=8Bgroup/lojban?hl=3Den >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@=E2=80=8Bgooglegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at=20 >>>>> http://groups.google.com/=E2=80=8Bgroup/lojban?hl=3Den >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@=E2=80=8Bgooglegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at=20 >>>> http://groups.google.com/=E2=80=8Bgroup/lojban?hl=3Den >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> --=20 >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >>> lojban+unsubscribe@=E2=80=8Bgooglegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at=20 >>> http://groups.google.com/=E2=80=8Bgroup/lojban?hl=3Den >>> . >>> >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >> lojban+unsubscribe@=E2=80=8Bgooglegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at=20 >> http://groups.google.com/=E2=80=8Bgroup/lojban?hl=3Den >> . >> > > > > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/bS5m7zzpW30J. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_103_16764189.1332516923766 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable lol, okay, I meant 'pause'.  Clearly I am a noob in linguistics, I fin= d it endlessly fascinating though.  I just thought it would make it so= und more natural to have a pause at the beginning of a paragraph.  Any= way, so is the eSpeak a pretty good text to speech program?  I have us= ed it a few time to help with pronounciation.

On Friday, March 23, 2= 012 2:32:01 AM UTC-4, aionys wrote:
I wasn't talking to you. I was responding to what you said, yes, but = you weren't my intended audience.

On Fri,= Mar 23, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
Er.. I know that, and I've already read the = case against LA. Also, I did mention it in my post:
that's if you adhere to dotside. If not, you can omit the pre-stop= under certain circumstances: the word is preceded by [la] or [doi], which = under non-dotside are forbidden to appear in the cmevla itself. = ;

Dotside is great. Forbidding certain syllables is kind of silly, = just to save a pause.

mu'o mi'e la tsani noi ca'ed= ai co'a morsi zo'o


On 23 March 2012 02:08, Jonathan Jones <= span dir=3D"ltr"><eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Mar = 22, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> w= rote:
Only words beginning with vowels, that aren't cmevla (which require pauses = on both sides) require a pre-stop.
[.i] requires a pause because it is = vowel-initial.
[ni'o] does not; it is consonant-initial.
[.djeikyb.] requires two pauses, one before, one after; it is a cmevla= . (of course, that's if you adhere to dotside. If not, you can omit the pre= -stop under certain circumstances: the word is preceded by [la] or [doi], w= hich under non-dotside are forbidden to appear in the cmevla itself.)

By "pause", please understand that it's not necessarily= the complete stopping of sound production. The "glottal stop" and the "no = sound" sounds are valid for [.] in Lojban, and therefore [.] may have a sou= nd.

If you're a fervent believer in audio-visual isomorphis= m, which according to some is already false for Lojban, you should write th= e period everywhere it would be spoken. If you're lazy, you can omit the pe= riod in all places where it may be unambiguously inferred: before a vowel-i= nitial word and after a consonant-final word. It cannot be unambiguously in= ferred that there is a pause before a consonant-final word. In particular, = the " " character can be a pause as well as it may not be, therefore in [la= djeisyn], there are two interpretations: the sumti [la .djeisyn.] and the = name [ladjeisyn]. Therefore, it is best to always begin cmevla with a pause= , no matter the circumstances.

One of the very few advantages of not using Dot= -Side is that {la djeisyn} can only be the sumti {la.djeisyn.}. The differe= nce between Dot-Side and not side is simply that in Dot-Side all names must= begin with denpabu (".") as well as end with it, but "la", "lai", and "doi= " are allowed within names, whereas in nonDS, consonant-beginning names do = not require a leading denpabu /when preceded by those cmavo/ (they are requ= ired at all other times, however, such as in {mi'e.kritcan.} or {coi.kristc= an.}), but the aforementioned syllables are /not/ allowed within the name.<= br>
The reason behind the Dot-Side proposal, BTW, is that absolutely no jbo= pre have been able to follow the nonDS prohibited syllable rule- everyone a= t least once has accidentally used one of those syllables, usually "la", in= a name.

Simply put, Dot-Side came around because completely forbidding those sy= llables in a name- a rule we can't even apparently follow anyway- doesn't s= eem worth the minor advantage of not needing to pause between the name and = three cmavo, especially when one of those cmavo is a very common syllable i= n names.

If anyone's interested in the full argument regarding Dot-Side, you can= read the proposal that started the whole Dot-Side thing here: http://www= .lojban.org/tiki/=E2=80=8BThe+Case+Against+LA
 
Of course, if you're all-around lazy like me, you can just = never write the pauses: no one will try to kill you (at least I hope).

mu'o mi'e la tsani

On 22 March 2012 23:02, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> w= rote:
There is no stop in {ni'o}. If there were a stop, there would be a ".".


On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 7:51 PM, R= exScientiarum <amt2839@gmail.com> wrote:
I downloaded eSpeak when I learned it did te= xt to speech for lojban.  It seems nearly flawless (to me, but I am ju= st learning), the only thing I can tell is wrong with it is that it doesn't= put a stop in at {ni'o}... still it does with {.i}.  I assumed everyo= ne knew about it but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere so I thought I'd = mention it.  Is its pronunciation accurate?

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@=E2=80=8Bg= ooglegroups.com.
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo p= ilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )


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=
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@=E2=80=8Bg= ooglegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/=E2=80=8Bgr= oup/lojban?hl=3Den.

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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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