Received: from mail-vb0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]:49241) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SKhXR-0004wk-Re; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:56:21 -0700 Received: by vbbfd1 with SMTP id fd1sf8364496vbb.16 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:55:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=MfuBq/SCMhBjDBOdiPjEFkryDCZBs+NKFSoiwuBkDBk=; b=xckolwO8Zhggbbeh4D1CijrZozZiBusra8y+ycfdPSk4jhxFcCgP3LEaom9xHXz2gN 1fQsXba85KdLiFd9k7k59StLf9TRGmAeg1ga7MGmsAqScs7hFLUdp8ktHHb/mJBwwDCx Kl+AFIykgql2dZTUpdYKZLBripw1BgJR2GaQg= Received: by 10.52.19.43 with SMTP id b11mr12191vde.4.1334804159000; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:55:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.108.7 with SMTP id d7ls747436vcp.4.gmail; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.33.4 with SMTP id n4mr324505vdi.1.1334804157878; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.33.4 with SMTP id n4mr324504vdi.1.1334804157860; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vb0-f47.google.com (mail-vb0-f47.google.com [209.85.212.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cb10si383910vdb.2.2012.04.18.19.55.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.47; Received: by vbbfr13 with SMTP id fr13so6232106vbb.20 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.88.6 with SMTP id y6mr213136vcl.32.1334804157595; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:55:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.90.140 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:55:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <30478569.1901.1334777241763.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbug19> References: <31301822.96.1333553131851.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbctx1> <1228095.1034.1334762209875.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbcsr1> <30478569.1901.1334777241763.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbug19> From: Jacob Errington Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:55:37 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: We need more new words for umami taste, menthol taste and piquancy To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b34403ca8806904bdff4f06 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b34403ca8806904bdff4f06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Exactly. [ka broda] really doesn't have that much to do with "-ness" at all, by itself. What [ka broda] means exactly, really depends on the selbri relating it. [xy. silnyselvu'i] -> [xy. silna se vrusi] -> [xy. se vrusi lo ka silna] -> [lo ka silna cu vrusi xy.] "X tastes salty/like salt." From what I gather about [ka] and the way it's used, it makes a secondary claim. In this case, the secondary claim is that [xy] *is* a silna1, in a way. In particular, it's silna1 such that it *tastes* like silna1 tastes, i.e. salty. Making up gismu isn't done lightly, and making up zi'evla/fu'ivla for things that have short lujvo equivalents is a "waste" (hardly, considering zi'evla-space is unlimited) of zi'evla-space. All in all, [broda se vrusi] produces a [x1 tastes like ] type of selbri; I'd say that's the best solution, when such a broda exists. Otherwise, we have to resort to fu'ivla. mu'o mi'e la tsani On 18 April 2012 15:27, ianek wrote: > {ka broda} cannot mean "salty" etc. "ti ka silna" means "this is a > property of being salt", not "this is salty". You could make lujvo like > {silnyvu'i} etc. Replacing gismu by lujvo is also possible, but then I > guess you want to use more meaningful terms for other things too, like > {fetre'a} instead of {ninmu} and {nalma'u} instead of {verba} and > {nalma'ufetre'a} instead of {nixli} and maybe even {cmuvla} instead of > {gismu}... > > mu'o mi'e ianek > > > On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:16:49 PM UTC+2, gleki wrote: >> >> I suggest optionally replacing existing gismu for tastes with more >> meaningful terms. >> >> source:http://en.wikipedia.**org/wiki/Taste >> >> ? ka silna -salty >> titla ka sakta - sweet >> slari ka slami - sour >> kurki ka cakla - bitter >> la'oi umami / ka rectu - umami >> se kurtsapi / ka mernta - minty/fresh >> ka tcati - dry >> ka grasu - fatty >> ka xalka - kokumi (alcohol included, so non-neutral) >> ??? - numbness taste >> ka cpina - spicy >> >> On Wednesday, April 4, 2012 7:25:31 PM UTC+4, gleki wrote: >>> >>> Umami is considered as one of five tastes now. To be fair it deserves >>> gismu, but I'll be humble. Fu'ivla will be fine for me. >>> It's called umami (at least in English, Spanish and Russian) >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Umami >>> >>> >>> Also taste has such features as >>> chemesthesis which includes >>> menthol taste and piquancy. >>> >>> What are your suggestions? >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/1jwCpDnyoAAJ. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --047d7b34403ca8806904bdff4f06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Exactly. [ka broda] really doesn't have that much to do with "-nes= s" at all, by itself. What [ka broda] means exactly, really depends on= the selbri relating it.
[xy. silnyselvu'i] -> [xy. silna se vru= si] -> [xy. se vrusi lo ka silna] -> [lo ka silna cu vrusi xy.] "= ;X tastes salty/like salt."
From what I gather about [ka] and the way it's used, it makes a se= condary claim. In this case, the secondary claim is that [xy] *is* a silna1= , in a way. In particular, it's silna1 such that it *tastes* like silna= 1 tastes, i.e. salty.

Making up gismu isn't done lightly, and making up z= i'evla/fu'ivla for things that have short lujvo equivalents is a &q= uot;waste" (hardly, considering zi'evla-space is unlimited) of zi&= #39;evla-space.

All in all, [broda se vrusi] produces a [x1 tastes like= <lo broda>] type of selbri; I'd say that's the best solution= , when such a broda exists. Otherwise, we have to resort to fu'ivla.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

On 18 April 2012 15:27, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:
{ka broda} cannot mean "salty" etc. "ti ka silna" means= "this is a property of being salt", not "this is salty"= ;. You could make lujvo like {silnyvu'i} etc. Replacing gismu by lujvo = is also possible, but then I guess you want to use more meaningful terms fo= r other things too, like {fetre'a} instead of {ninmu} and {nalma'u}= instead of {verba} and {nalma'ufetre'a} instead of {nixli} and may= be even {cmuvla} instead of {gismu}...

mu'o mi'e ianek


On Wed= nesday, April 18, 2012 5:16:49 PM UTC+2, gleki wrote:
I suggest optionally replacing existing gismu for tastes with more meaningf= ul terms.


? =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ka silna -salty
titla =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ka sakta - sweet
slari =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ka slami - sour
kurki =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ka cakla - bitter
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0la'oi umami / ka rectu - umami
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0se kurtsapi / ka mernta - m= inty/fresh
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ka tcati - = dry
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ka grasu - fatty
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ka xalka - kokumi (alco= hol included, so non-neutral)
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0??? - numbness taste
<= div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ka cpina - spicy

On= Wednesday, April 4, 2012 7:25:31 PM UTC+4, gleki wrote:
Umami is considered as one of five tastes now. To be fair it deserves = gismu, but I'll be humble. Fu'ivla will be fine for me.
I= t's called umami (at least in English, Spanish and Russian)

= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami=A0

Als= o taste has such features as chemesthesis=A0which includes menthol taste and piq= uancy.

What are your suggestions?

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