Received: from mail-wi0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]:34376) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SMksY-0002NS-Mi; Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:31 -0700 Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12sf876365wib.16 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=F6AT2DY5qfDGRjXH9V+DO8xuCjHR60JLYbP80bNvBwg=; b=O9UU7i+WeistXyYPYwLNmNPZI7ii2/3xJkoqkriWHyKf9V2/MuEj0yObGBMOTnK6GK qKHNuQh0s/R2Zn4U4RSxd65IlgvJGGvo7H0OQrbOY/4LKUooe3XBEPLKL/nY19ByE2Yb x4fO1Dl8Ox5BGQNMQaCbkmdwrkxC8MgZaCvOI= Received: by 10.204.129.83 with SMTP id n19mr1577660bks.20.1335293653769; Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.5.133 with SMTP id 5ls7138044bkv.0.gmail; Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.156.199 with SMTP id y7mr1206107bkw.7.1335293652669; Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.156.199 with SMTP id y7mr1206106bkw.7.1335293652612; Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f51.google.com (mail-lpp01m010-f51.google.com [209.85.215.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cs9si22987539bkb.3.2012.04.24.11.54.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.51; Received: by laap9 with SMTP id p9so896598laa.24 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.86.231 with SMTP id s7mr10000919lbz.11.1335293652142; Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.44.129 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Apr 2012 11:54:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <274897.569.1335292818579.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbcko7> References: <3713959.1175.1335276119163.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjb15> <274897.569.1335292818579.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbcko7> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2012 12:54:12 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Rafybri and 4 new rafsi. Suggestion for a new agglutinative style in Lojban From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0401fadbce8bf304be71479c X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d0401fadbce8bf304be71479c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:40 PM, gleki wrote: > On Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:38:30 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >> >> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:01 AM, gleki wrote: >> >>> At first I must say that I'm not a member of any language-developing >>> committee (BPFK or anything). >>> And the following is just an idea how the flexibility of Lojban can be >>> enriched. >>> Nobody is asked to use the following when writing or speaking real >>> Lojban. >>> Everything here should be marked as exclusively experimental and (.a'o) >>> as the source for further consideration. >>> None of the existing rules of Lojban (the baseline) is changed. >>> >>> *Rafybri* >>> * >>> * >>> I always noticed how lujvo break the transparent logic of bridi. >>> Let's look at {nitkla} which means {klama lo cnita}. >>> Although it's much easier to learn {nitkla} rather then "descend" (in >>> English they differ in sounding considerably) >>> nobody can guess that {nitkla} means "descend" and doesn't mean "go in a >>> lower position under something" without getting the translation beforehand. >>> >> >> I disagree. I argue that it is actually rather easy to determine the >> meaning of nitkla. >> >> Let us assume that nitkla is a lujvo formed from the tanru {cnita klama}, >> which may or may not be true. {cnita klama} is a "below type-of going", >> i.e.. "going below", i.e. "descending". >> > > The point is that in many lujvo the first rafsi acts rather like an adverb > when translating to English. > The semantic role of the parts of a lujvo depends on the words used to make said lujvo. Equating anything in Lojban to an English grammar structure is malglico. > How is that difficult to figure out? >> >> >>> Although anybody is free to say "klama lo cnita" instead >>> it will lead to lengthier speech. >>> >>> What I suggest is to glue bridi together into a new form of lujvo called >>> "rafybri". >>> That's how it works. >>> 1. First rule >>> >>> 4 new rafsi >>> zve <= be fe lo >>> zvi <= be fi lo >>> zvo <= be fo lo >>> zvu <= be fu lo >>> and >>> jve (fifth rafsi) >>> >>> When composing rafybri you replace gismu with rafsi and "be fe lo" etc. >>> with new rafsi of ZVE series. >>> >>> 2. cmavo attached to rafsi don't lead to the emergence of a new meaning. >>> Therefore selpa'i is a synonym for "se prami" (actually the second rule is >>> not a new rule at all). >>> >>> Applying this rule we can dramatically compress the length of lojbanic >>> jufra. >>> And if we replace cnita with dizlo in our example we can save even two >>> syllables. >>> klama lo cnita = klama lo dizlo = kla+zve+dzi = klazvedzi >>> >>> blanu je crino = blajveri'o. In this case I refer to {blajveri'o} as to >>> a synonym of {blanu je crino} (blue-green). I suggest that no new meaning >>> is added here. >>> >>> In other words rafybri can be constructed from tanru only if the latter >>> have logical operators >>> ("pelnimre tricu" can't be compressed into rafybri). >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/** >>> msg/lojban/-/kgWQbXt6Q-QJ >>> . >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@** >>> googlegroups.com . >>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>> group/lojban?hl=en . >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/ts0t4b8LznwJ. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --f46d0401fadbce8bf304be71479c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 = at 12:40 PM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wro= te:
On Tuesday, April 24, 2012= 10:38:30 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:01 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
At first I must say that I'm not a = member of any language-developing committee (BPFK or anything).
And the following is just an idea how the flexibility of Lojban can be enri= ched.
Nobody is asked to use the following when writing or speaki= ng real Lojban.
Everything here should be marked as exclusively e= xperimental and (.a'o) as the source for further consideration.
None of the existing rules of Lojban (the baseline) is changed.
<= div>
Rafybri

I always = noticed how lujvo break the transparent logic of bridi.
Let's= look at {nitkla} which means {klama lo cnita}.
Although it's much easier to learn {nitkla} rather then "desc= end" (in English they differ in sounding considerably)
nobod= y can guess that {nitkla} means "descend" and doesn't mean &q= uot;go in a lower position under something" without getting the transl= ation beforehand.

I disagree. I argue that it is actually rather easy t= o determine the meaning of nitkla.

Let us assume that nitkla is a lu= jvo formed from the tanru {cnita klama}, which may or may not be true. {cni= ta klama} is a "below type-of going", i.e.. "going below&quo= t;, i.e. "descending".

The point is that = in many lujvo the first rafsi acts rather like an adverb when translating t= o English.

The semantic role of the parts of a l= ujvo depends on the words used to make said lujvo. Equating anything in Loj= ban to an English grammar structure is malglico.
=A0
How is that difficult to figure out?
=A0
Although anybody is free to say &qu= ot;klama lo cnita" instead
it will lead to lengthier speech.

What I sugg= est is to glue bridi together into a new form of lujvo called "rafybri= ".
That's how it works.=A0
1. First rule
4 new = rafsi
zve <=3D be fe lo
zvi <=3D be fi lo=A0
zvo <=3D be fo lo=A0
zvu <=3D be fu lo=A0
a= nd=A0
jve (fifth rafsi)
When composing rafybri you replace= gismu with rafsi and "be fe lo" etc. with new rafsi of ZVE serie= s.

2. cmavo attached to rafsi don't lead t= o the emergence of a new meaning. Therefore selpa'i =A0is a synonym for= "se prami" (actually the second rule is not a new rule at all).<= /div>

Applying this rule we can dramatically compress the len= gth of lojbanic jufra.
And if we replace cnita with dizlo in our = example we can save even two syllables.
klama lo cnita =3D klama = lo dizlo =3D kla+zve+dzi =3D klazvedzi

blanu je crino =3D blajveri'o. In this case I refer= to {blajveri'o} as to a synonym of {blanu je crino} (blue-green). I su= ggest that no new meaning is added here.

In other = words rafybri can be constructed from tanru only if the latter have logical= operators
("pelnimre tricu" can't be compressed into rafybri).

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/kgWQbXt6Q-QJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o = mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi= .luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father= . :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/ts0t4b8LznwJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--f46d0401fadbce8bf304be71479c--