Thinking about it, th= e whole "counter-intuitive" thing is actually a really good reaso= n against placing cnita1 in klama3 for nitkla. Making klama3, the origin, b= e cnita1, the thing below, logically means placing cnita2, the thing above,= in klama3, the destination, making nitkla in case mean, in essence "t= o go upwards". The reason this is counter-intuitive is because it mean= s using a word that means "down"- or at least a meaning associate= d, "under, below, etc."- to make a word that means "up"= . We have a word that means "up" in exactly the same way cnita me= ans "down"- gapru- so it would make more sense to use that for a = "go up" lujvo. {lu ko'a gapru ko'e li'u mintu soi lu = ko'a se cnita ko'e li'u}

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:15 AM, Jonathan Jones <<= a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com= > wrote:

Personally, I think you're overestimating th= e difficulty. Most lujvo can be easily figured out without needing to "= ;memorize" them, as long as you /have/ memorized the gismu, cmavo, and= their rafsi, which you /have to do anyway/ to speak Lojban fluently.

I don't see how it is difficult to figure out, without previously l= earning the definition, that nitkla means "x1 goes down from high poin= t x2 to low point x3 ...". I can see how variants could be what you co= nclude, as Latro showed, but you should at least be able to understand that= "downwards" and "move" constitute the meaning of "= ;nitkla", merely by knowing the meanings of cnita and klama, and also = knowing the rafsi thereof.

Also, there's this really great strategy for finding out what a wor= d you don't know means. It's actually an ancient technique, used si= nce the first days of verbal communication: Ask the person that said it.
Lojban is a young language, with no native speakers (although Robin'= ;s trying to change the latter), so it's no surprise that most people h= ave difficulties regarding concepts.

The only time I have trouble wi= th a Lojban word, however, is when the meaning is counter-intuitive, that i= s, when what it means does not seem to fit in with what is used to make it,= such as me'ispe. Looking at the word, without knowing the definition, = you would think it has something to do with the concepts of "marriage&= quot; and "sister", and you may even reach the conclusion that it= 's talking about someone who is a sister because of a marriage. This ma= kes sense.

me'ispe currently means "Brother-in-Law".

My line = of attack for lujvo like the above isn't to try to memorize the meaning= , or to come with some addition to the language that will make it more comp= licated while seeming to make it more simple (any addition is automatically= an increase in complexity), but to /fix/ the /broken/ word.

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:41 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
My suggestion for rafybri is to eliminate the need to memorise thousands of= words which makes Lojban dictionary as hard to memorise as native language= s.
If you can say {klama lo cnita} instead of {nitkla} it's ok= . If you feel {klama lo cnita}=A0=A0is too long to pronounce you might wanna use rafybri.=

The meaning=A0=A0of lujvo is postulated. They need to be entered in= to dictionaries to be clearly understood by everyone.
The meaning= of rafybri is not postulated. You don't have to add them to dictionari= es.

Everyone can easily decompress them back to bridi. You don't have = to memorise thousands of words.
In some cases, though, lujvo is t= he best solution (take names of plants and animals, for instance). But &quo= t;to descend" is really not worth it.

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:05:35 AM UTC+4, Latro wro= te:
That's a bias in favor = of klama2, which is malgli if it is considered to be inherent (it isn't= malgli in an actual lujvo definition). It could just as easily be "be= low type-of-going" i.e. "going from below" i.e. "rising= ". This seems less obvious to an English speaker but that's only b= ecause of preposition omission; "going below" is "going to b= elow" which is essentially symmetric with the case which favors klama3= . There is a similar albeit less natural version for klama4, namely essenti= ally "tunneling", in the physical sense.

On the general topic, I think making a substantive agglutinative system= is probably going to wind up being futile in a language like this.

= mu'o mi'e latros

On Tue, Apr 24, = 2012 at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:01 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

At first I must say that I'm not a = member of any language-developing committee (BPFK or anything).
And the following is just an idea how the flexibility of Lojban can be enri= ched.
Nobody is asked to use the following when writing or speaki= ng real Lojban.
Everything here should be marked as exclusively e= xperimental and (.a'o) as the source for further consideration.

None of the existing rules of Lojban (the baseline) is changed.
<= div>
Rafybri

I always = noticed how lujvo break the transparent logic of bridi.
Let's= look at {nitkla} which means {klama lo cnita}.

Although it's much easier to learn {nitkla} rather then "desc= end" (in English they differ in sounding considerably)
nobod= y can guess that {nitkla} means "descend" and doesn't mean &q= uot;go in a lower position under something" without getting the transl= ation beforehand.

I disagree. I argue that it is actually rather = easy to determine the meaning of nitkla.

Let us assume that nitkla i= s a lujvo formed from the tanru {cnita klama}, which may or may not be true= . {cnita klama} is a "below type-of going", i.e.. "going bel= ow", i.e. "descending".

How is that difficult to figure out?
=A0
Although anybody is f= ree to say "klama lo cnita" instead

it will lead to lengthier speech.

What I sugg= est is to glue bridi together into a new form of lujvo called "rafybri= ".
That's how it works.=A0
1. First rule

4 new = rafsi
zve <=3D be fe lo
zvi <=3D be fi lo=A0
zvo <=3D be fo lo=A0
zvu <=3D be fu lo=A0
a= nd=A0
jve (fifth rafsi)
When composing rafybri you replace= gismu with rafsi and "be fe lo" etc. with new rafsi of ZVE serie= s.

2. cmavo attached to rafsi don't lead t= o the emergence of a new meaning. Therefore selpa'i =A0is a synonym for= "se prami" (actually the second rule is not a new rule at all).<= /div>

Applying this rule we can dramatically compress the len= gth of lojbanic jufra.
And if we replace cnita with dizlo in our = example we can save even two syllables.
klama lo cnita =3D klama = lo dizlo =3D kla+zve+dzi =3D klazvedzi

blanu je crino =3D blajveri'o. In this case I refer= to {blajveri'o} as to a synonym of {blanu je crino} (blue-green). I su= ggest that no new meaning is added here.

In other = words rafybri can be constructed from tanru only if the latter have logical= operators

("pelnimre tricu" can't be compressed into rafybri).
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/kgWQbXt6Q-QJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.

=

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'= ;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.