Received: from mail-wi0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]:43060) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SNB3k-0006uu-Df; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:55 -0700 Received: by wibhq12 with SMTP id hq12sf422642wib.16 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=10yD7rH4kiLFhxEL2hTNColU0jbGRm6tYzmno3RSpvc=; b=MdVMOz4V88xsHORQZMJUt3zeWQETSv3neJ0BCGJpTzVaoeRqPHSlMgbiCp/KW2Cciv F1KFt5VylEwtbZc3LHvaw13bQDVZCeVJOhiK5MvMLytkpdklOBdzwj0TjxBVF0ms9vJ3 uNF/arz3a0A8TJWV4cLhM5ao85xs7isZVL+uo= Received: by 10.204.128.79 with SMTP id j15mr75307bks.35.1335394292712; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.154.81 with SMTP id n17ls193406bkw.1.gmail; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.129.15 with SMTP id m15mr511198bks.2.1335394291625; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.129.15 with SMTP id m15mr511197bks.2.1335394291579; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com (mail-lb0-f176.google.com [209.85.217.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k15si1237693bks.0.2012.04.25.15.51.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.176; Received: by lbbgg13 with SMTP id gg13so711566lbb.35 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.47.170 with SMTP id e10mr2206682lbn.69.1335394290849; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.106.39 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 15:51:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3713959.1175.1335276119163.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjb15> <22535506.2534.1335343311953.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjj38> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2012 18:51:10 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Rafybri and 4 new rafsi. Suggestion for a new agglutinative style in Lojban To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec554d4ee57599a04be88b6be X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec554d4ee57599a04be88b6be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Jacob Errington wrote: > I'm pretty sure that the zo'u-construct I used at the beginning will > parse, > It did not parse either time using jboski. stevo notwithstanding that I'm almost certain that I've seen it used before, by > skilled lojbanists. However, you're right about the second one, that [cu] > was from my initial idea of the sentence; removing it makes the sentence > parse, and maintain the intended meaning. > Nothing in there is used purely for the sake of complexity: it's just the > way I write in Lojban. The most complicated thing there is stuff like > [CONNECTIVE BAI BO] and jai, but neither of those are really that > complicated. Oh, and ad hoc lujvo that are 100% non-cilmo, like [kamseljmi] > -> [ka se jimpe]. I do that for shortening, and to remember rafsi. > > mu'o mi'e la tsani > > On 25 April 2012 07:11, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> Also, it seems to me- and granted I haven't seen much of your writing, so >> I could be wrong- that you're purposefully using very advanced grammatical >> constructs. I would suggest trimming the fat, as it were, considering I'm >> pretty sure gleki is still a nintadni. I consider myself a middle-level >> jbopre and I had trouble understanding you. >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:01 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> doi tsani do na drani pe'i loka pilno zo zo'u >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Jacob Errington wrote: >>> >>>> i doi la gleki zo'u tu'e >>>> i je'a se nandu lo nu jai galfi lo jbobau i mi tugni la djanatyn djons >>>> lo du'u su'o lo jbopre goi ko'a troci gi'eku'i iesa'e fliba >>>> i la deple'u mlana .e la xorlo cu po'o zo'u snada gi'eki'ubo je'a ke >>>> jbobau sarcu >>>> i ta'onai tu'a zo co .eja'ebo zoi raf col raf se smuni lo do seldji vau >>>> pe'i >>>> i sa'e lu mi joi lo pampe'o cu simxu co kansa co zgana co nu tigni co >>>> pendo li'u mupli tu'a zo co >>>> i si'a zo simcolkancolzgacolnuntigycolpe'o mupli ra'oi col >>>> i ku'i lo lujvo pe zo col so'aroi clani dukse vau iepei >>>> i lo lujvo pe secau tu'a cy. zi'e noi ke'a se mupli zo >>>> nunpedytigkezyzgakansi'u noi ke'a lujvo fo lo bi'unai clani tanru cu je'a >>>> zanmau >>>> i ja'o lo tai lujvo cu jai frili fai lo kamseljmi ki'u lo du'u >>>> so'eroiku lo seltau cu srana lo za'umoi sumti tu'u >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e la tsani >>>> >>>> >>>> On 25 April 2012 06:27, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>> >>>>> doi gleki do na pamoi troci lonu xagzengau lo jbobau >>>>> to lu ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e zenba loka xamgu ko'i kei ko'o li'u smuni >>>>> toi >>>>> .i so'a jbopre ti'u lo nintadni to mi cmima toi cu troci lo se go'i >>>>> .i da'aso'ada na snada >>>>> .i ro go'i cu te cusku lu ko pamoi nitcu lonu cilre lo jbobau gi'e >>>>> remoi nitcu lonu jimpe >>>>> .i ca lonu la'edi'u mulno ku curmi lonu troci li'u >>>>> .i puti'u lonu nanca li pamu ku la xorlo .e la.dotsaid. se steci lonu >>>>> snada >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:35 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thinking about it, the whole "counter-intuitive" thing is actually a >>>>>> really good reason against placing cnita1 in klama3 for nitkla. Making >>>>>> klama3, the origin, be cnita1, the thing below, logically means placing >>>>>> cnita2, the thing above, in klama3, the destination, making nitkla in case >>>>>> mean, in essence "to go upwards". The reason this is counter-intuitive is >>>>>> because it means using a word that means "down"- or at least a meaning >>>>>> associated, "under, below, etc."- to make a word that means "up". We have a >>>>>> word that means "up" in exactly the same way cnita means "down"- gapru- so >>>>>> it would make more sense to use that for a "go up" lujvo. {lu ko'a gapru >>>>>> ko'e li'u mintu soi lu ko'a se cnita ko'e li'u} >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:15 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally, I think you're overestimating the difficulty. Most lujvo >>>>>>> can be easily figured out without needing to "memorize" them, as long as >>>>>>> you /have/ memorized the gismu, cmavo, and their rafsi, which you /have to >>>>>>> do anyway/ to speak Lojban fluently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't see how it is difficult to figure out, without previously >>>>>>> learning the definition, that nitkla means "x1 goes down from high point x2 >>>>>>> to low point x3 ...". I can see how variants could be what you conclude, as >>>>>>> Latro showed, but you should at least be able to understand that >>>>>>> "downwards" and "move" constitute the meaning of "nitkla", merely by >>>>>>> knowing the meanings of cnita and klama, and also knowing the rafsi thereof. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, there's this really great strategy for finding out what a word >>>>>>> you don't know means. It's actually an ancient technique, used since the >>>>>>> first days of verbal communication: Ask the person that said it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lojban is a young language, with no native speakers (although >>>>>>> Robin's trying to change the latter), so it's no surprise that most people >>>>>>> have difficulties regarding concepts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only time I have trouble with a Lojban word, however, is when >>>>>>> the meaning is counter-intuitive, that is, when what it means does not seem >>>>>>> to fit in with what is used to make it, such as me'ispe. Looking at the >>>>>>> word, without knowing the definition, you would think it has something to >>>>>>> do with the concepts of "marriage" and "sister", and you may even reach the >>>>>>> conclusion that it's talking about someone who is a sister because of a >>>>>>> marriage. This makes sense. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> me'ispe currently means "Brother-in-Law". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My line of attack for lujvo like the above isn't to try to memorize >>>>>>> the meaning, or to come with some addition to the language that will make >>>>>>> it more complicated while seeming to make it more simple (any addition is >>>>>>> automatically an increase in complexity), but to /fix/ the /broken/ word. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:41 AM, gleki wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My suggestion for rafybri is to eliminate the need to memorise >>>>>>>> thousands of words which makes Lojban dictionary as hard to memorise as >>>>>>>> native languages. >>>>>>>> If you can say {klama lo cnita} instead of {nitkla} it's ok. If you >>>>>>>> feel {klama lo cnita} is too long to pronounce you might wanna use rafybri. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The meaning of lujvo is postulated. They need to be entered into >>>>>>>> dictionaries to be clearly understood by everyone. >>>>>>>> The meaning of rafybri is not postulated. You don't have to add >>>>>>>> them to dictionaries. >>>>>>>> Everyone can easily decompress them back to bridi. You don't have >>>>>>>> to memorise thousands of words. >>>>>>>> In some cases, though, lujvo is the best solution (take names of >>>>>>>> plants and animals, for instance). But "to descend" is really not worth it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:05:35 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's a bias in favor of klama2, which is malgli if it is >>>>>>>>> considered to be inherent (it isn't malgli in an actual lujvo definition). >>>>>>>>> It could just as easily be "below type-of-going" i.e. "going from below" >>>>>>>>> i.e. "rising". This seems less obvious to an English speaker but that's >>>>>>>>> only because of preposition omission; "going below" is "going to below" >>>>>>>>> which is essentially symmetric with the case which favors klama3. There is >>>>>>>>> a similar albeit less natural version for klama4, namely essentially >>>>>>>>> "tunneling", in the physical sense. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On the general topic, I think making a substantive agglutinative >>>>>>>>> system is probably going to wind up being futile in a language like this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e latros >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Jones >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:01 AM, gleki < >>>>>>>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> At first I must say that I'm not a member of any >>>>>>>>>>> language-developing committee (BPFK or anything). >>>>>>>>>>> And the following is just an idea how the flexibility of Lojban >>>>>>>>>>> can be enriched. >>>>>>>>>>> Nobody is asked to use the following when writing or speaking >>>>>>>>>>> real Lojban. >>>>>>>>>>> Everything here should be marked as exclusively experimental and >>>>>>>>>>> (.a'o) as the source for further consideration. >>>>>>>>>>> None of the existing rules of Lojban (the baseline) is changed. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Rafybri* >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> I always noticed how lujvo break the transparent logic of bridi. >>>>>>>>>>> Let's look at {nitkla} which means {klama lo cnita}. >>>>>>>>>>> Although it's much easier to learn {nitkla} rather then >>>>>>>>>>> "descend" (in English they differ in sounding considerably) >>>>>>>>>>> nobody can guess that {nitkla} means "descend" and doesn't mean >>>>>>>>>>> "go in a lower position under something" without getting the translation >>>>>>>>>>> beforehand. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I disagree. I argue that it is actually rather easy to determine >>>>>>>>>> the meaning of nitkla. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Let us assume that nitkla is a lujvo formed from the tanru {cnita >>>>>>>>>> klama}, which may or may not be true. {cnita klama} is a "below type-of >>>>>>>>>> going", i.e.. "going below", i.e. "descending". >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How is that difficult to figure out? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Although anybody is free to say "klama lo cnita" instead >>>>>>>>>>> it will lead to lengthier speech. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What I suggest is to glue bridi together into a new form of >>>>>>>>>>> lujvo called "rafybri". >>>>>>>>>>> That's how it works. >>>>>>>>>>> 1. First rule >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 4 new rafsi >>>>>>>>>>> zve <= be fe lo >>>>>>>>>>> zvi <= be fi lo >>>>>>>>>>> zvo <= be fo lo >>>>>>>>>>> zvu <= be fu lo >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> jve (fifth rafsi) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> When composing rafybri you replace gismu with rafsi and "be fe >>>>>>>>>>> lo" etc. with new rafsi of ZVE series. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. cmavo attached to rafsi don't lead to the emergence of a new >>>>>>>>>>> meaning. Therefore selpa'i is a synonym for "se prami" (actually the >>>>>>>>>>> second rule is not a new rule at all). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Applying this rule we can dramatically compress the length of >>>>>>>>>>> lojbanic jufra. >>>>>>>>>>> And if we replace cnita with dizlo in our example we can save >>>>>>>>>>> even two syllables. >>>>>>>>>>> klama lo cnita = klama lo dizlo = kla+zve+dzi = klazvedzi >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> blanu je crino = blajveri'o. In this case I refer to >>>>>>>>>>> {blajveri'o} as to a synonym of {blanu je crino} (blue-green). I suggest >>>>>>>>>>> that no new meaning is added here. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In other words rafybri can be constructed from tanru only if the >>>>>>>>>>> latter have logical operators >>>>>>>>>>> ("pelnimre tricu" can't be compressed into rafybri). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/**msg/lojban/-/kgWQbXt6Q-QJ >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/* >>>>>>>>>>> *group/lojban?hl=en >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do >>>>>>>>>> zo'o >>>>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@ >>>>>>>>>> **googlegroups.com . >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>>>>>>>> group/lojban?hl=en . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/L6oFMr7C9F8J. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>> >>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec554d4ee57599a04be88b6be Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 = at 6:47 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
=
I'm pretty sure that the zo'u-construct = I used at the beginning will parse,

= It did not parse either time using jboski.=A0

stev= o

no= twithstanding that I'm almost certain that I've seen it used before= , by skilled lojbanists. However, you're right about the second one, th= at [cu] was from my initial idea of the sentence; removing it makes the sen= tence parse, and maintain the intended meaning.
Nothing in there is used purely for the sake of = complexity: it's just the way I write in Lojban. The most complicated t= hing there is stuff like [CONNECTIVE BAI BO] and jai, but neither of those = are really that complicated. Oh, and ad hoc lujvo that are 100% non-cilmo, = like [kamseljmi] -> [ka se jimpe]. I do that for shortening, and to reme= mber rafsi.

mu'o mi= 'e la tsani

On 25 April 2012 07:11, J= onathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Also, it seems to= me- and granted I haven't seen much of your writing, so I could be wro= ng- that you're purposefully using very advanced grammatical constructs= . I would suggest trimming the fat, as it were, considering I'm pretty = sure gleki is still a nintadni. I consider myself a middle-level jbopre and= I had trouble understanding you.


On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:01 AM, Jonathan Jo= nes <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
doi tsani do na drani pe'i loka pilno zo zo&= #39;u


On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4= :50 AM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
i doi la gleki zo= 'u tu'e
i je'a se nandu lo nu j= ai galfi lo jbobau i mi tugni la djanatyn djons lo du'u su'o lo jbo= pre goi ko'a troci gi'eku'i iesa'e fliba
i la deple'u mlana .e la xorlo cu po'o = =A0zo'u snada gi'eki'ubo je'a ke jbobau sarcu
i ta'onai tu'a zo co .eja'ebo zoi raf col ra= f se smuni lo do seldji vau pe'i
i sa'e lu mi joi lo pampe'o cu simxu co = kansa co zgana co nu tigni co pendo li'u mupli tu'a zo co
i si'a zo simcolkancolzgacolnuntigycolpe'o m= upli ra'oi col
i ku'i lo lujvo pe zo col so'aroi clani = dukse vau iepei
i lo lujvo pe secau tu'= a cy. zi'e noi ke'a se mupli zo nunpedytigkezyzgakansi'u noi ke= 'a lujvo fo lo bi'unai clani tanru cu je'a zanmau
i ja'o lo tai lujvo cu jai frili fai lo kams= eljmi ki'u lo du'u so'eroiku lo seltau cu srana lo za'umoi = sumti tu'u

mu'o mi'e la tsani


On 2= 5 April 2012 06:27, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote= :
doi gleki do na pamoi troci lonu xagzengau lo jb= obau
to lu ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e zenba loka xamgu ko'i kei ko= 'o li'u smuni toi
.i so'a jbopre ti'u lo nintadni to mi = cmima toi cu troci lo se go'i
.i da'aso'ada na snada
.i ro go'i cu te cusku lu ko pamoi ni= tcu lonu cilre lo jbobau gi'e remoi nitcu lonu jimpe
.i ca lonu la&#= 39;edi'u mulno ku curmi lonu troci li'u
.i puti'u lonu nanca= li pamu ku la xorlo .e la.dotsaid. se steci lonu snada


On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:35 AM, Jonathan Jo= nes <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
Thinking about it, th= e whole "counter-intuitive" thing is actually a really good reaso= n against placing cnita1 in klama3 for nitkla. Making klama3, the origin, b= e cnita1, the thing below, logically means placing cnita2, the thing above,= in klama3, the destination, making nitkla in case mean, in essence "t= o go upwards". The reason this is counter-intuitive is because it mean= s using a word that means "down"- or at least a meaning associate= d, "under, below, etc."- to make a word that means "up"= . We have a word that means "up" in exactly the same way cnita me= ans "down"- gapru- so it would make more sense to use that for a = "go up" lujvo. {lu ko'a gapru ko'e li'u mintu soi lu = ko'a se cnita ko'e li'u}


On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:15 AM, Jonathan Jones <<= a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com= > wrote:
Personally, I think you're overestimating th= e difficulty. Most lujvo can be easily figured out without needing to "= ;memorize" them, as long as you /have/ memorized the gismu, cmavo, and= their rafsi, which you /have to do anyway/ to speak Lojban fluently.

I don't see how it is difficult to figure out, without previously l= earning the definition, that nitkla means "x1 goes down from high poin= t x2 to low point x3 ...". I can see how variants could be what you co= nclude, as Latro showed, but you should at least be able to understand that= "downwards" and "move" constitute the meaning of "= ;nitkla", merely by knowing the meanings of cnita and klama, and also = knowing the rafsi thereof.

Also, there's this really great strategy for finding out what a wor= d you don't know means. It's actually an ancient technique, used si= nce the first days of verbal communication: Ask the person that said it.
Lojban is a young language, with no native speakers (although Robin'= ;s trying to change the latter), so it's no surprise that most people h= ave difficulties regarding concepts.

The only time I have trouble wi= th a Lojban word, however, is when the meaning is counter-intuitive, that i= s, when what it means does not seem to fit in with what is used to make it,= such as me'ispe. Looking at the word, without knowing the definition, = you would think it has something to do with the concepts of "marriage&= quot; and "sister", and you may even reach the conclusion that it= 's talking about someone who is a sister because of a marriage. This ma= kes sense.

me'ispe currently means "Brother-in-Law".

My line = of attack for lujvo like the above isn't to try to memorize the meaning= , or to come with some addition to the language that will make it more comp= licated while seeming to make it more simple (any addition is automatically= an increase in complexity), but to /fix/ the /broken/ word.


On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:41 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
My suggestion for rafybri is to eliminate the need to memorise thousands of= words which makes Lojban dictionary as hard to memorise as native language= s.
If you can say {klama lo cnita} instead of {nitkla} it's ok= . If you feel {klama lo cnita}=A0=A0is too long to pronounce you might wanna use rafybri.=

The meaning=A0=A0of lujvo is postulated. They need to be entered in= to dictionaries to be clearly understood by everyone.
The meaning= of rafybri is not postulated. You don't have to add them to dictionari= es.
Everyone can easily decompress them back to bridi. You don't have = to memorise thousands of words.
In some cases, though, lujvo is t= he best solution (take names of plants and animals, for instance). But &quo= t;to descend" is really not worth it.

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:05:35 AM UTC+4, Latro wro= te:
That's a bias in favor = of klama2, which is malgli if it is considered to be inherent (it isn't= malgli in an actual lujvo definition). It could just as easily be "be= low type-of-going" i.e. "going from below" i.e. "rising= ". This seems less obvious to an English speaker but that's only b= ecause of preposition omission; "going below" is "going to b= elow" which is essentially symmetric with the case which favors klama3= . There is a similar albeit less natural version for klama4, namely essenti= ally "tunneling", in the physical sense.

On the general topic, I think making a substantive agglutinative system= is probably going to wind up being futile in a language like this.

= mu'o mi'e latros

On Tue, Apr 24, = 2012 at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:01 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
At first I must say that I'm not a = member of any language-developing committee (BPFK or anything).
And the following is just an idea how the flexibility of Lojban can be enri= ched.
Nobody is asked to use the following when writing or speaki= ng real Lojban.
Everything here should be marked as exclusively e= xperimental and (.a'o) as the source for further consideration.
None of the existing rules of Lojban (the baseline) is changed.
<= div>
Rafybri

I always = noticed how lujvo break the transparent logic of bridi.
Let's= look at {nitkla} which means {klama lo cnita}.
Although it's much easier to learn {nitkla} rather then "desc= end" (in English they differ in sounding considerably)
nobod= y can guess that {nitkla} means "descend" and doesn't mean &q= uot;go in a lower position under something" without getting the transl= ation beforehand.

I disagree. I argue that it is actually rather = easy to determine the meaning of nitkla.

Let us assume that nitkla i= s a lujvo formed from the tanru {cnita klama}, which may or may not be true= . {cnita klama} is a "below type-of going", i.e.. "going bel= ow", i.e. "descending".

How is that difficult to figure out?
=A0
Although anybody is f= ree to say "klama lo cnita" instead
it will lead to lengthier speech.

What I sugg= est is to glue bridi together into a new form of lujvo called "rafybri= ".
That's how it works.=A0
1. First rule
4 new = rafsi
zve <=3D be fe lo
zvi <=3D be fi lo=A0
zvo <=3D be fo lo=A0
zvu <=3D be fu lo=A0
a= nd=A0
jve (fifth rafsi)
When composing rafybri you replace= gismu with rafsi and "be fe lo" etc. with new rafsi of ZVE serie= s.

2. cmavo attached to rafsi don't lead t= o the emergence of a new meaning. Therefore selpa'i =A0is a synonym for= "se prami" (actually the second rule is not a new rule at all).<= /div>

Applying this rule we can dramatically compress the len= gth of lojbanic jufra.
And if we replace cnita with dizlo in our = example we can save even two syllables.
klama lo cnita =3D klama = lo dizlo =3D kla+zve+dzi =3D klazvedzi

blanu je crino =3D blajveri'o. In this case I refer= to {blajveri'o} as to a synonym of {blanu je crino} (blue-green). I su= ggest that no new meaning is added here.

In other = words rafybri can be constructed from tanru only if the latter have logical= operators
("pelnimre tricu" can't be compressed into rafybri).

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'= ;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
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mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )




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m= u'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am you= r father. :D )




--
mu'o mi'e .aion= ys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )




--
mu'o mi'e .aion= ys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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