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Subject: Re: [lojban] me'ispe was Rafybri
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The lojban definitions would certainly look like this:

i lo ka me'ispe cu ka ce'u speni lo mensi be ce'u ce'u -> x1 is the spouse
of the sister of x2, by spouse-bond x3.
i lo ka spebu'a cu ka ce'u bruna lo speni be ce'u ce'u -> x1 is the brother
of the spouse of x2, by brother-bond x3.

Now, for me'ispe, if A is married to B's sister, then A must be male,
according to Bad Western Tradition. A is thus B's brother-in-law, e.g. if
I'm married to your sister, I'm your brother-in-law. [i fu'e mu'a mi speni
lo mensi be do i mi me'ispe do fu'o]
For spebu'a, if A is the brother of B's spouse, then A must be male (by
virtue of being a brother of someone) and is also B's brother-in-law. e.g.
if I'm your spouse's brother, then I'm your brother-in-law. [i fu'e mu'a mi
bruna lo speni be do .i mi spebu'a do]

I do all my Lojban definitions this way. (I've been doing quite a few lujvo
definitions like this.) It seems like producing a definition this way
 almost always yields a jvajvo result.

Does this clear anything up?

mu'o mi'e la tsani

On 25 April 2012 17:03, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> The term "brother-in-law" is in the definition. It is not just a bad
> keyword.
>
> Unfortunately, like so many words, the only existing definition of the
> word is in English.
>
> Obviously a Lojban definition would not have any such problems.
>
> to pu benji ti fo lo mi me la.android. samcku toi
>
> mu'o mi'e.aionys.
> On Apr 25, 2012 2:59 PM, "Craig Daniel" <craigbdaniel@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > It is broken. "brother-in-law" != me'ispe. Saying it does is broken.
>> >
>> > Add you said yourself, "brother-in-law" == me'ispe jonai spebu'a.
>> >
>> > They are not equivalent, therefore, the definition is broken.
>> >
>>
>> A keyword is not a definition. Lots of Lojban words have perfectly
>> functional definitions and terrible choices of keyword; I'd definitely
>> put me'ispe in that category, since it's quite clear from the
>> definition what it means and it is not synonymous with
>> "brother-in-law."
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>>
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<div class=3D"gmail_extra">The lojban definitions would certainly look like=
 this:</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
>i lo ka me&#39;ispe cu ka ce&#39;u speni lo mensi be ce&#39;u ce&#39;u -&g=
t; x1 is the spouse of the sister of x2, by spouse-bond x3.</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra">i lo ka spebu&#39;a cu ka ce&#39;u bruna lo spen=
i be ce&#39;u ce&#39;u -&gt; x1 is the brother of the spouse of x2, by brot=
her-bond x3.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra">

Now, for me&#39;ispe, if A is married to B&#39;s sister, then A must be mal=
e, according to Bad Western Tradition. A is thus B&#39;s brother-in-law, e.=
g. if I&#39;m married to your sister, I&#39;m your brother-in-law. [i fu&#3=
9;e mu&#39;a mi speni lo mensi be do i mi me&#39;ispe do fu&#39;o]=A0</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra">For spebu&#39;a, if A is the brother of B&#39;s =
spouse, then A must be male (by virtue of being a brother of someone) and i=
s also B&#39;s brother-in-law. e.g. if I&#39;m your spouse&#39;s brother, t=
hen I&#39;m your brother-in-law. [i fu&#39;e mu&#39;a mi bruna lo speni be =
do .i mi spebu&#39;a do]</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I do all my=
 Lojban definitions this way. (I&#39;ve been doing quite a few lujvo defini=
tions like this.) It seems like producing a definition this way =A0almost a=
lways yields a jvajvo result.</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Does this c=
lear anything up?</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_extra">mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la tsani<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 25 April 2012 17:03, Jonathan Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p>The term &quot;brother-in-law&quot; is in=
 the definition. It is not just a bad keyword.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, like so many words, the only existing definition of the w=
ord is in English.</p>
<p>Obviously a Lojban definition would not have any such problems.</p><div =
class=3D"im HOEnZb">
<p>to pu benji ti fo lo mi me la.android. samcku toi</p>
<p>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e.aionys.</p>
</div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Apr 25, 2012 2:59 PM, &quot;Craig Daniel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:craig=
bdaniel@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">craigbdaniel@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br type=3D"attribution">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Jonathan Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeon=
us@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; It is broken. &quot;brother-in-law&quot; !=3D me&#39;ispe. Saying it d=
oes is broken.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Add you said yourself, &quot;brother-in-law&quot; =3D=3D me&#39;ispe j=
onai spebu&#39;a.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; They are not equivalent, therefore, the definition is broken.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
A keyword is not a definition. Lots of Lojban words have perfectly<br>
functional definitions and terrible choices of keyword; I&#39;d definitely<=
br>
put me&#39;ispe in that category, since it&#39;s quite clear from the<br>
definition what it means and it is not synonymous with<br>
&quot;brother-in-law.&quot;<br>
<br>
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roup/lojban?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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n?hl=3Den</a>.<br>


</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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?hl=3Den.<br />



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