Received: from mail-qa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.216.56]:54229) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SS3Mj-0007y6-VG; Wed, 09 May 2012 02:39:39 -0700 Received: by qauh8 with SMTP id h8sf361298qau.1 for ; Wed, 09 May 2012 02:39:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=yLMiDeHv4vxPcOOEmVLwEVBAH8lhkuyKQNcMEBK0EaY=; b=4BTzTth6FHBC5zxsP42uu9PA8IjjF7/BvPJzioWoT3e1kc2VdnHB8mS82RP3T3ui/1 o/bexfaBKLEJOxCLikwcQCMM8P7U5YGRP0D8H4UDGO4i0CZ042UDAIQF2i5jIspYyOmq XZsN2qbd/rk9l/pYNvFOjYbDUl7z+O/Gnl7cI= Received: by 10.52.75.101 with SMTP id b5mr925716vdw.16.1336556359225; Wed, 09 May 2012 02:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.69.174 with SMTP id f14ls1708045vdu.2.gmail; Wed, 09 May 2012 02:39:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.94.111 with SMTP id db15mr435567vdb.11.1336556358645; Wed, 09 May 2012 02:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by i8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Wed, 9 May 2012 02:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 02:39:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3713959.1175.1335276119163.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynjb15>

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User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.2) AppleWebKit/536.11 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/20.0.1130.1 Safari/536.11,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Rafybri and 4 new rafsi. Suggestion for a new agglutinative style in Lojban From: gleki To: lojban X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / On Apr 25, 2:50=A0pm, Jacob Errington wrote: > i doi la gleki zo'u tu'e > i je'a se nandu lo nu jai galfi lo jbobau i mi tugni la djanatyn djons lo > du'u su'o lo jbopre goi ko'a troci gi'eku'i iesa'e fliba > i la deple'u mlana .e la xorlo cu po'o =A0zo'u snada gi'eki'ubo je'a ke > jbobau sarcu > i ta'onai tu'a zo co .eja'ebo zoi raf col raf se smuni lo do seldji vau p= e'i lo rafybri valsi cu se demri'a bridi i ku'i lo lujvo valsi cu se smuni lo frica be lo tanru ja bridi > i sa'e lu mi joi lo pampe'o cu simxu co kansa co zgana co nu tigni co pen= do > li'u mupli tu'a zo co > i si'a zo simcolkancolzgacolnuntigycolpe'o mupli ra'oi col lo lujvo valsi ku na'e vasru lo nenri sumti > i ku'i lo lujvo pe zo col so'aroi clani dukse vau iepei > i lo lujvo pe secau tu'a cy. zi'e noi ke'a se mupli zo > nunpedytigkezyzgakansi'u noi ke'a lujvo fo lo bi'unai clani tanru cu je'a > zanmau > i ja'o lo tai lujvo cu jai frili fai lo kamseljmi ki'u lo du'u so'eroiku = lo > seltau cu srana lo za'umoi sumti tu'u > > mu'o mi'e la tsani > > On 25 April 2012 06:27, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > > doi gleki do na pamoi troci lonu xagzengau lo jbobau > > to lu ko'a gasnu lonu ko'e zenba loka xamgu ko'i kei ko'o li'u smuni to= i > > .i so'a jbopre ti'u lo nintadni to mi cmima toi cu troci lo se go'i > > .i da'aso'ada na snada > > .i ro go'i cu te cusku lu ko pamoi nitcu lonu cilre lo jbobau gi'e remo= i > > nitcu lonu jimpe > > .i ca lonu la'edi'u mulno ku curmi lonu troci li'u > > .i puti'u lonu nanca li pamu ku la xorlo .e la.dotsaid. se steci lonu s= nada > > > On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:35 AM, Jonathan Jones wro= te: > > >> Thinking about it, the whole "counter-intuitive" thing is actually a > >> really good reason against placing cnita1 in klama3 for nitkla. Making > >> klama3, the origin, be cnita1, the thing below, logically means placin= g > >> cnita2, the thing above, in klama3, the destination, making nitkla in = case > >> mean, in essence "to go upwards". The reason this is counter-intuitive= is > >> because it means using a word that means "down"- or at least a meaning > >> associated, "under, below, etc."- to make a word that means "up". We h= ave a > >> word that means "up" in exactly the same way cnita means "down"- gapru= - so > >> it would make more sense to use that for a "go up" lujvo. {lu ko'a gap= ru > >> ko'e li'u mintu soi lu ko'a se cnita ko'e li'u} > > >> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:15 AM, Jonathan Jones wro= te: > > >>> Personally, I think you're overestimating the difficulty. Most lujvo = can > >>> be easily figured out without needing to "memorize" them, as long as = you > >>> /have/ memorized the gismu, cmavo, and their rafsi, which you /have t= o do > >>> anyway/ to speak Lojban fluently. > > >>> I don't see how it is difficult to figure out, without previously > >>> learning the definition, that nitkla means "x1 goes down from high po= int x2 > >>> to low point x3 ...". I can see how variants could be what you conclu= de, as > >>> Latro showed, but you should at least be able to understand that > >>> "downwards" and "move" constitute the meaning of "nitkla", merely by > >>> knowing the meanings of cnita and klama, and also knowing the rafsi t= hereof. > > >>> Also, there's this really great strategy for finding out what a word = you > >>> don't know means. It's actually an ancient technique, used since the = first > >>> days of verbal communication: Ask the person that said it. > > >>> Lojban is a young language, with no native speakers (although Robin's > >>> trying to change the latter), so it's no surprise that most people ha= ve > >>> difficulties regarding concepts. > > >>> The only time I have trouble with a Lojban word, however, is when the > >>> meaning is counter-intuitive, that is, when what it means does not se= em to > >>> fit in with what is used to make it, such as me'ispe. Looking at the = word, > >>> without knowing the definition, you would think it has something to d= o with > >>> the concepts of "marriage" and "sister", and you may even reach the > >>> conclusion that it's talking about someone who is a sister because of= a > >>> marriage. This makes sense. > > >>> me'ispe currently means "Brother-in-Law". > > >>> My line of attack for lujvo like the above isn't to try to memorize t= he > >>> meaning, or to come with some addition to the language that will make= it > >>> more complicated while seeming to make it more simple (any addition i= s > >>> automatically an increase in complexity), but to /fix/ the /broken/ w= ord. > > >>> On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:41 AM, gleki wr= ote: > > >>>> My suggestion for rafybri is to eliminate the need to memorise > >>>> thousands of words which makes Lojban dictionary as hard to memorise= as > >>>> native languages. > >>>> If you can say {klama lo cnita} instead of {nitkla} it's ok. If you > >>>> feel {klama lo cnita} =A0is too long to pronounce you might wanna us= e rafybri. > > >>>> The meaning =A0of lujvo is postulated. They need to be entered into > >>>> dictionaries to be clearly understood by everyone. > >>>> The meaning of rafybri is not postulated. You don't have to add them= to > >>>> dictionaries. > >>>> Everyone can easily decompress them back to bridi. You don't have to > >>>> memorise thousands of words. > >>>> In some cases, though, lujvo is the best solution (take names of pla= nts > >>>> and animals, for instance). But "to descend" is really not worth it. > > >>>> On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:05:35 AM UTC+4, Latro wrote: > > >>>>> That's a bias in favor of klama2, which is malgli if it is consider= ed > >>>>> to be inherent (it isn't malgli in an actual lujvo definition). It = could > >>>>> just as easily be "below type-of-going" i.e. "going from below" i.e= . > >>>>> "rising". This seems less obvious to an English speaker but that's = only > >>>>> because of preposition omission; "going below" is "going to below" = which is > >>>>> essentially symmetric with the case which favors klama3. There is a= similar > >>>>> albeit less natural version for klama4, namely essentially "tunneli= ng", in > >>>>> the physical sense. > > >>>>> On the general topic, I think making a substantive agglutinative > >>>>> system is probably going to wind up being futile in a language like= this. > > >>>>> mu'o mi'e latros > > >>>>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Jonathan Jones = wrote: > > >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:01 AM, gleki wrote: > > >>>>>>> At first I must say that I'm not a member of any language-develop= ing > >>>>>>> committee (BPFK or anything). > >>>>>>> And the following is just an idea how the flexibility of Lojban c= an > >>>>>>> be enriched. > >>>>>>> Nobody is asked to use the following when writing or speaking rea= l > >>>>>>> Lojban. > >>>>>>> Everything here should be marked as exclusively experimental and > >>>>>>> (.a'o) as the source for further consideration. > >>>>>>> None of the existing rules of Lojban (the baseline) is changed. > > >>>>>>> *Rafybri* > >>>>>>> * > >>>>>>> * > >>>>>>> I always noticed how lujvo break the transparent logic of bridi. > >>>>>>> Let's look at {nitkla} which means {klama lo cnita}. > >>>>>>> Although it's much easier to learn {nitkla} rather then "descend" > >>>>>>> (in English they differ in sounding considerably) > >>>>>>> nobody can guess that {nitkla} means "descend" and doesn't mean "= go > >>>>>>> in a lower position under something" without getting the translat= ion > >>>>>>> beforehand. > > >>>>>> I disagree. I argue that it is actually rather easy to determine t= he > >>>>>> meaning of nitkla. > > >>>>>> Let us assume that nitkla is a lujvo formed from the tanru {cnita > >>>>>> klama}, which may or may not be true. {cnita klama} is a "below ty= pe-of > >>>>>> going", i.e.. "going below", i.e. "descending". > > >>>>>> How is that difficult to figure out? > > >>>>>>> Although anybody is free to say "klama lo cnita" instead > >>>>>>> it will lead to lengthier speech. > > >>>>>>> What I suggest is to glue bridi together into a new form of lujvo > >>>>>>> called "rafybri". > >>>>>>> That's how it works. > >>>>>>> 1. First rule > > >>>>>>> 4 new rafsi > >>>>>>> zve <=3D be fe lo > >>>>>>> zvi <=3D be fi lo > >>>>>>> zvo <=3D be fo lo > >>>>>>> zvu <=3D be fu lo > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> jve (fifth rafsi) > > >>>>>>> When composing rafybri you replace gismu with rafsi and "be fe lo= " > >>>>>>> etc. with new rafsi of ZVE series. > > >>>>>>> 2. cmavo attached to rafsi don't lead to the emergence of a new > >>>>>>> meaning. Therefore selpa'i =A0is a synonym for "se prami" (actual= ly the > >>>>>>> second rule is not a new rule at all). > > >>>>>>> Applying this rule we can dramatically compress the length of > >>>>>>> lojbanic jufra. > >>>>>>> And if we replace cnita with dizlo in our example we can save eve= n > >>>>>>> two syllables. > >>>>>>> klama lo cnita =3D klama lo dizlo =3D kla+zve+dzi =3D klazvedzi > > >>>>>>> blanu je crino =3D blajveri'o. In this case I refer to {blajveri'= o} as > >>>>>>> to a synonym of {blanu je crino} (blue-green). I suggest that no = new > >>>>>>> meaning is added here. > > >>>>>>> In other words rafybri can be constructed from tanru only if the > >>>>>>> latter have logical operators > >>>>>>> ("pelnimre tricu" can't be compressed into rafybri). > > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e > >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. > >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit > >>>>>>>https://groups.google.com/d/**msg/lojban/-/kgWQbXt6Q-QJ > >>>>>>> . > >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@= ** > >>>>>>> googlegroups.com . > >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/** > >>>>>>> group/lojban?hl=3Den . > > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > >>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo= 'o > >>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. > > ... > > read more =BB --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.