Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:60921) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SZrjZ-0003z5-QM; Wed, 30 May 2012 15:51:26 -0700 Received: by qcsq5 with SMTP id q5sf276558qcs.16 for ; Wed, 30 May 2012 15:51:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=jkQX1EJnT4OA2VYu7XsNf6rkOTsBDc1Fanyqb4dtcJk=; b=DaiDv2JdfhpdoWj1eOakJU7D1bkbixS0VAc6vHWhnEu27O4cy6tjRCsUL58PcNUcuw hHLsCOs8CtxEnKSsRgReeVUg3KnioSq7Q7xrHJaYrKaB3KbG/hBVBczvS/NzTqvettHK WGPncJsrAkcbsTv3IZN/cPkKSZNZ/oh1zFjLo= Received: by 10.68.233.166 with SMTP id tx6mr2549151pbc.12.1338418270762; Wed, 30 May 2012 15:51:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.83.5 with SMTP id m5ls2187187pby.4.gmail; Wed, 30 May 2012 15:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.223.40 with SMTP id qr8mr14283310pbc.0.1338418270324; Wed, 30 May 2012 15:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.223.40 with SMTP id qr8mr14283308pbc.0.1338418270313; Wed, 30 May 2012 15:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stodi.digitalkingdom.org (mail.digitalkingdom.org. [173.13.139.236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ve7si2483609pbc.2.2012.05.30.15.51.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 30 May 2012 15:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.236; Received: from rlpowell by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SZrjR-0003z0-2i for lojban@googlegroups.com; Wed, 30 May 2012 15:51:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 15:51:09 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Historian: what's up with directional words? Message-ID: <20120530225108.GE25777@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20120530210633.GD25777@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <4FC6A344.7040800@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4FC6A344.7040800@lojban.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 06:46:28PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote: > Robin Lee Powell wrote: > >The direction words (pritu, zunle, trixe, etc) are phrased very > >strangely: > > > >zunle = x1 is to the left/left-hand side of x2 which > >faces/in-frame-of-reference x3. > > > >What does "which faces" mean? It seems to imply that x2 must > >have a natural facing/front, which is bad. Why do we even care > >about facing in this contexnt? > > Pretend that you are multilaterally symmetrical, and that you have > no front. Identify what is to your left. Now rotate yourself 180 > degrees, and what is "to your left" is what used to be "to your > right". Thus your orientation/facing/frame of reference, is > essential to defining what "to your left" means. Obviously, but why is that a feature of the *x2*, instead of the *x3* which is the frame of reference? In other words, please describe this picture using {pritu}, and fill all places (feel free to fill some places inspecifically): http://ynevar.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/apple-and-orange.jpg > >{mlana} additionally bothers me because you can't say *which* > >side something is on with {mlana}, and additionally discussing > >facing seems even more bizarre, but at least it gets its own > >place: > > > >x1 is to the side of/lateral to x2 and facing x3 from point of > >view/in-frame-of-reference x4 > > > >which is an improvement. > > > >Just wondering what the plan was here. > > The definition of mlana was intended to cover the case where all > that is important is that it is to the side rather than directly > in front of you (or behind you), without worrying about left and > right, and perhaps allowing for the possibility of being "to the > side" in the 3rd dimension as well (ie above/below) in a > gravityless situation where up and down are ambiguous. > > If you have no definable orientation at all (i.e no "front") then > you cannot have a "side" - or rather everything is to your "side", > and distance is all that matters (lamji, jibni, darno). None of which tells me why the x3 is there; it seems utterly superfluous. -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li'u -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.