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Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 17:54:15 -0700
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Historian: what's up with directional words?
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On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 01:26:48PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier, President
and Founder - LLG wrote:
> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 06:46:28PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier,
> >President and Founder - LLG wrote:
> >
> >>Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >>
> >>>The direction words (pritu, zunle, trixe, etc) are phrased very
> >>>strangely:
> >>>
> >>>zunle = x1 is to the left/left-hand side of x2 which
> >>>faces/in-frame-of-reference x3.
> >>>
> >>>What does "which faces" mean?  It seems to imply that x2 must
> >>>have a natural facing/front, which is bad.  Why do we even care
> >>>about facing in this contexnt?
> >>
> >>Pretend that you are multilaterally symmetrical, and that you
> >>have no front.  Identify what is to your left.  Now rotate
> >>yourself 180 degrees, and what is "to your left" is what used to
> >>be "to your right".  Thus your orientation/facing/frame of
> >>reference, is essential to defining what "to your left" means.
> >
> >
> >Obviously, but why is that a feature of the *x2*, instead of the
> >*x3* which is the frame of reference?
> >
> >In other words, please describe this picture using {pritu}, and
> >fill all places (feel free to fill some places inspecifically):
> >
> >http://ynevar.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/apple-and-orange.jpg
> 
> Ah.  Your example shows me the problem.  There are three and not
> two objects that are relevant here - an apple, and orange, and an
> observer, whose orientation and relationship to the apple and
> orange (or their image) determines what is to the left.

Precisely.

> The basic concept for direction words presumed that the
> observer/observation origin had to be specified.  The norm that we
> had in mind was the situation where x2 is the observer, and
> his/her orientation is critical to what is left/right.
> 
> When comparing two objects, neither of which is the observer, the
> observer becomes part of x3 (though how to phrase frames of
> reference places in Lojban was something that I never seriously
> tackled).

[snip tackling]

> >None of which tells me why the x3 is there; it seems utterly
> >superfluous.
> 
> As I hope is clear from my examples, the x3 is vital because left
> and right have no meaning without a frame of reference.

Well, it is *now*.  Before you had x2 as the observer.

FWIW, IRC generally settled upon {le plise cu pritu le najnimre mi}
as being both complete and sufficient for normal purposes.  This
would mean that the case you were talking about is {le plise cu pritu
mi mi} (if there was, in fact, an apple to your right).

In either case, IMO facing should be specified in the x3; something
like {le plise cu pritu le najnimre le viska be fa'a le snanu} (I
can also imagine solutions for "facing south" with farna or jvinu,
but they are less obvious).

Assuming you agree, the definitions need some serious clarification.

-Robin

-- 
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
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lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
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