Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]:34072) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SbVyy-0000Dv-7m; Mon, 04 Jun 2012 05:02:01 -0700 Received: by daek18 with SMTP id k18sf4078734dae.16 for ; Mon, 04 Jun 2012 05:01:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=ZOeAdGEPZn61CC5ha8ZYi5Njp6fShKHCNfdZK8xyoIc=; b=ZoD3VEvRARQOaweObaU3YVoMHTliAO7PAjUfvc+acuZOavpR27Y/ej7z3rhTguhaZ2 67ISQ8cwMHK+dtI+Ki8pHoRGYYpdrhtRWHuybk6XBfn/Peza3JbZXJhXuVl53vSnkzds Gjw/1ovVHhA8I4cvoV9U1CK2IuF9ncJOER6UE= Received: by 10.236.195.1 with SMTP id o1mr172870yhn.18.1338811314032; Mon, 04 Jun 2012 05:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.236.124.81 with SMTP id w57ls5052225yhh.2.gmail; Mon, 04 Jun 2012 05:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.39.7 with SMTP id r7mr5648223anj.9.1338811313478; Mon, 04 Jun 2012 05:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.39.7 with SMTP id r7mr5648222anj.9.1338811313461; Mon, 04 Jun 2012 05:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gh0-f171.google.com (mail-gh0-f171.google.com [209.85.160.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d5si7464689yhj.7.2012.06.04.05.01.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 04 Jun 2012 05:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.171; Received: by mail-gh0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 10so3217445ghy.2 for ; Mon, 04 Jun 2012 05:01:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.6.132 with SMTP id b4mr9838059oea.22.1338811313291; Mon, 04 Jun 2012 05:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.46.36 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Jun 2012 05:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:01:53 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] FAhA & BAI From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / On 3 June 2012 16:08, Jonathan Jones wrote: > Except that's not true. fa'e, being the BAI form of fatne, /does/ have an > x3. And and x4, an x5, ... , and an xN. All selbri have an infinite amount > of places, all past me'ixa are undefined. Any xN whose role is undefined has no discrete existence in the semantics of the selbri. We can't tell an undefined x3 from an undefined x4 or x100, so nothing qualifies as *fatne's x3* unless we actually put it into words. My computer allows me to create a 2012th folder on my Desktop, and that doesn't mean my Desktop already has a 2012th folder. The syntactic extensibility is there to allow for the arbitrary addition of a new sumti place, not to spontaneously generate an infinite amount of it. After all, "has no x3" isn't a deviant description of a selbri for which the dictionary has defined no x3: "The place structure of "rinka'' does not have a place for the agent" (CLL12.16.13) "I was surprised that {misno} doesn't have an x3 place, but that's ok." (xorxes, 10 Oct 1993) "{ka} doesn't have an x2." (And, 8 Aug 2001) "Because blanu has no x2?" (Robin, 15 Mar 2007) > BAI add a place to the selbri, creating a new predicate. > Tense words do not. > This is why they have different grammar- they fulfill different roles. > > "fa'e" = "fi'o fatne" > "fa'a" != "fi'o farna" The conventional grammar says [NAhE] [SE] BAI [NAI] and [NAhE] FAhA [NAI] not because FAhA don't add a place but because they don't have x2-5 that can be marked by SE. FAhA apparently do add a place. {mi dansu fa'a do} would mean "I dance facing you" by virtue of {do} participating in the relationship denoted by {dansu}. {fa'a} contributes to the meaning of the predicate as much as BAI do. The interpretation of {mi dansu fa'a do bai do} would hinge as much upon {fa'a do} as upon {bai do}. "Facing you" would impart as much information about the event of me dancing as "compelled by you" would. In {lo dansu be fa'a bei bai}, the two tags are parallel in their function of adding a place to the selbri. According to jbovlaste, {fa'a} is {fi'o farna}, {pa'o} is {fi'o se pagre}, and so on. "Tense" is a problematic term. I wouldn't say all BAI are non-tense words. {fa'e}, {di'o} etc. seem as tense-ish as {to'o}, {bu'u} etc. (conversely, the latter seem as modal-ish as the former). >> Many do-nots in Lojban are already based upon semantics, upon whether >> it wouldn't make sense. I don't use "ve di'o", because it doesn't make >> sense, even though grammatical; I wouldn't use "se fa'a", because it >> wouldn't make sense, even if grammatical. > > > This is not one of those cases. It is not the "semantics" that determines > this "do-not", it is the grammar. And my point is that we could merge and simplify the grammar of FAhA into that of BAI since we wouldn't use SE where it wouldn't make sense anyway, i.e. where there's no x2-5 to bring forward. mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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