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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Are Natlang the best case for entropy in
 communication ?
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 08:32:07 -0500
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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The "natural" response to a problem of the simple sort imagined here is rep=
etition with added stress: 'so'E', which falls within this scheme.  There a=
re harder cases where this is not enough (and even this breaks the strict w=
ritten-spoken isomorphy).  But looking for fixes is a reasonable approach, =
given that prevention is no longer an option.  And, of course, the problem =
is still pretty remote.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 21, 2012, at 7:06 AM, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

> And forgot to add that this suggestion just changes phonology of certain =
phonemes if we consider V=3DVqV as one phoneme no matter what sound {q} den=
otes.
> This can be reasonable if we take into account that many lerfu have sever=
al possible phonemic realisations each (most notably "th/h" for { ' }).
>=20
>=20
> On Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:50:24 PM UTC+4, gleki wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Thursday, June 21, 2012 2:49:12 PM UTC+4, Escape Landsome wrote:
> We have no reason to get upset because on ONE PARTICULAR point=20
> natlangs behave better than lojban.=20
>=20
> There is even a chance that lojban can be amended in a way it behaves=20
> better then natlangs after the amendment.=20
>=20
> Suppose for instance we are given a new consonant "q", one could state=20
> that from now there is a strict equivalence between the phonological=20
> sequences=20
>=20
> "a" and "aqa"=20
>=20
> "e" and "eqe"=20
>=20
> "i" and "iqi"=20
>=20
> "o" and "oqo"=20
>=20
> "u" and "uqu"=20
>=20
>=20
> Oh. If you replace VqV with V3 (in Mandarine third tone, where V - vowel)=
 that would be quite reasonable too.
> =20
> Thus, so'a and so'e can be confused in a noisy environement, but=20
> saying so'aqa ou so'eqe would avoid that.=20
>=20
> This is a simple example to show you that discussing a drawback of=20
> lojban does not mean being mean towards it, rather it is what is=20
> expected from anybody here : that is, being scientific and examine=20
> closely and open-mindedly any problem.=20
>=20
> [I don't think the solution I proposed is a good one, either.   But at=20
> least it shows this is no dead-end street question.   And also we've=20
> no need to be aggressive.   Meanwhile, natlangs are still better than=20
> lojban on the entropy topic]=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/=
lojban/-/CRtH6Y33AxwJ.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb=
an?hl=3Den.

--=20
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.


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<html><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>The "natural" response to a problem of=
 the simple sort imagined here is repetition with added stress: 'so'E', whi=
ch falls within this scheme. &nbsp;There are harder cases where this is not=
 enough (and even this breaks the strict written-spoken isomorphy). &nbsp;B=
ut looking for fixes is a reasonable approach, given that prevention is no =
longer an option. &nbsp;And, of course, the problem is still pretty remote.=
</div><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 21, 2012, at 7:06 AM,=
 gleki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div>And forgot to add that this suggestion just changes phonol=
ogy of certain phonemes if we consider V=3DVqV as one phoneme no matter wha=
t sound {q} denotes.<div>This can be reasonable if we take into account tha=
t many lerfu have several possible phonemic realisations each (most notably=
 "th/h" for { ' }).</div><div><br><br>On Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:50:24 PM=
 UTC+4, gleki wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;ma=
rgin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><br><br>On=
 Thursday, June 21, 2012 2:49:12 PM UTC+4, Escape Landsome wrote:<blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">We have no reason to get upset because on ONE=
 PARTICULAR point
<br>natlangs behave better than lojban.
<br>
<br>There is even a chance that lojban can be amended in a way it behaves
<br>better then natlangs after the amendment.
<br>
<br>Suppose for instance we are given a new consonant "q", one could state
<br>that from now there is a strict equivalence between the phonological
<br>sequences
<br>
<br>"a" and "aqa"
<br>
<br>"e" and "eqe"
<br>
<br>"i" and "iqi"
<br>
<br>"o" and "oqo"
<br>
<br>"u" and "uqu"
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Oh. If you replace VqV with V3 (in Man=
darine third tone, where V - vowel) that would be quite reasonable too.</di=
v><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thus, so'a and s=
o'e can be confused in a noisy environement, but
<br>saying so'aqa ou so'eqe would avoid that.
<br>
<br>This is a simple example to show you that discussing a drawback of
<br>lojban does not mean being mean towards it, rather it is what is
<br>expected from anybody here : that is, being scientific and examine
<br>closely and open-mindedly any problem.
<br>
<br>[I don't think the solution I proposed is a good one, either. &nbsp; Bu=
t at
<br>least it shows this is no dead-end street question. &nbsp; And also we'=
ve
<br>no need to be aggressive. &nbsp; Meanwhile, natlangs are still better t=
han
<br>lojban on the entropy topic]
<br></blockquote></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
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To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msg/lojban/-/CRtH6Y33AxwJ"><a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msg/=
lojban/-/CRtH6Y33AxwJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/CRtH6Y33Axw=
J</a></a>.<br>=20
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
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bscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>

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</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

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?hl=3Den.<br />



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