Received: from mail-ee0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]:36850) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SinZb-0000FJ-5k; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:14:06 -0700 Received: by eekb57 with SMTP id b57sf2358357eek.16 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:13:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=IMyVS6Ch/CHjGSImqY+KEi7joSe1L5yIl7cMkEff8Io=; b=PXzhhD1k4+Vsmy0JntxaEYyQ4Lk8P1Htbd4OoD9V5fM8LTQtYEzgPz9xGJ7Mji1wCA kAlWMhvJoQF2kYNI8vmbAmHLEtMXSGdiZBCkBKQsV0nND3PQegclU3OVmWkqVNxdMcw9 OgzyOCU+s8gu8QJXVQzD5YSBd+hr6PZnrwSQ0= Received: by 10.204.152.197 with SMTP id h5mr362750bkw.21.1340547227516; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:13:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.130.152 with SMTP id t24ls2928027bks.1.gmail; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.205.134.138 with SMTP id ic10mr899596bkc.8.1340547226517; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.205.134.138 with SMTP id ic10mr899595bkc.8.1340547226486; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f178.google.com (mail-lb0-f178.google.com [209.85.217.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p5si10659973bks.1.2012.06.24.07.13.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.178; Received: by lbbgj10 with SMTP id gj10so7085296lbb.37 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:13:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.146.101 with SMTP id tb5mr8816783lab.0.1340547225780; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.46.36 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Jun 2012 07:13:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <74243394-F7AA-46CD-B731-21E95827CE6B@yahoo.com> <5fbb3fd1-8c00-42a4-9dac-e9889e69757f@googlegroups.com> <000eea56-0a1e-4f54-8862-3cc817d539e1@googlegroups.com> <9cb9e4c0-f3fa-4183-8582-f14de670148c@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 08:13:45 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Are Natlang the best case for entropy in communication ? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f2348b33281b004c3387993 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f2348b33281b004c3387993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Still argument without evidence. You are theorizing, and drawing conclusions from this UNTESTED theory. EVIDENCE OR GTFO. On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 8:11 AM, Escape Landsome wrote: > > No. No more argument. If you do not provide /evidence/, you will /never/ > > convince me. > > > I just noticed that 10 minutes ago I've written this : > > > Considering that nobody has metrics for Lojban or for the general case > > of paradigms in totally any language, you won't have more than > > qualitative argument based on mathematical properties of complexity > > measures and generic minorations/majorations of allowed values. > > > Thus, the genetic argument is roughly the one given here ---> > > http://bluemoon.lescigales.org/Kholok/CollectiveDesambiguation.html > > Now, << the genetic argument >> was mistyped ! I meant << the geneRic > argument >>. > > But everybody here understood me well. Why ? Because either the > difference between both words "genetic" and "generic" is slight in > context, or you had correctly CORRECTED me. > > That is to say, the choice between X = { generic, genetic } has low > entropy in THIS utterance. > > We could study other examples where a single mistyping of a single > letter would happen. > > For instance in French : << et alors elle a ouvert la mouche pour > parler >> is correctly understood as << la bouche >> instead of << la > mouche >>. Still the set X of all possible choices is big : X = { > bouche, couche, douche, louche, mouche, souche, touche } > > But the context prevents other Xouche words than body organs to be > selected, so the entropy is very low in context. > > - > > Now consider a lojban sentence where somebody would talk of a number > of people in a room, he would use so'V but would mistype the V letter. > > The X set has 5 elements but none of them can be best selected given > the context. > > Hence we conclude the entropy would be high in context. > > - > > If we consider all these examples, we see the last example entropy is > high because of the gathering of VERY OFTEN-USED FEATURES in a VERY > NARROW SET of VERY SIMILAR FORMS, which is not the case of the former > examples, since for those the paradigms are not natural. > > Hence you see the lojban case has very high entropy while the two > natlang examples have not. If this is not so, GIVE ME A NATLANG > EXAMPLE WITH NATURAL PARADIGM AND 5 ALTERNATIVES OR MORE, given the > same condition of mistyping of A SINGLE LETTER. > > The difference of greatness in entropy in lojban and natlang examples > is so flagrant you don't even need to measure it, as if we were > speaking of the size of an elephant compared to the size of a mouse. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e89a8f2348b33281b004c3387993 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Still argument without evidence. You are theorizing, and drawing conclusion= s from this UNTESTED theory. EVIDENCE OR GTFO.

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 8:11 AM, Escape Landsome &l= t;escaaape@gmail.co= m> wrote:
> No. No more argument.= If you do not provide /evidence/, you will /never/
> convince me.


I just noticed that 10 minutes ago I've written this :

> Considering that nobody has metrics for Lojban or for the general case=
> of paradigms in totally any language, you won't have more than
> qualitative argument based on mathematical properties of complexity > measures and generic minorations/majorations of allowed values.

> Thus, the genetic argument is roughly the one given here --->
> http://bluemoon.lescigales.org/Kholok/Collectiv= eDesambiguation.html

Now, << the genetic argument >> was mistyped ! =A0I meant= << the geneRic
argument >>.

But everybody here understood me well. =A0 Why ? =A0Because either the
difference between both words "genetic" and "generic" i= s slight in
context, or you had correctly CORRECTED me.

That is to say, the choice between X =3D { generic, genetic } has low
entropy in THIS utterance.

We could study other examples where a single mistyping of a single
letter would happen.

For instance in French : << et alors elle a ouvert la mouche pour
parler >> is correctly understood as << la bouche >> inst= ead of << la
mouche >>. =A0 Still the set X of all possible choices is big : X =3D= {
bouche, couche, douche, louche, mouche, souche, touche }

But the context prevents other Xouche words than body organs to be
selected, so the entropy is very low in context.

-

Now consider a lojban sentence where somebody would talk of a number
of people in a room, he would use so'V but would mistype the V letter.<= br>
The X set has 5 elements but none of them can be best selected given
the context.

Hence we conclude the entropy would be high in context.

-

If we consider all these examples, we see the last example entropy is
high because of the gathering of VERY OFTEN-USED FEATURES in a VERY
NARROW SET of VERY SIMILAR FORMS, which is not the case of the former
examples, since for those the paradigms are not natural.

Hence you see the lojban case has very high entropy while the two
natlang examples have not. =A0 If this is not so, GIVE ME A NATLANG
EXAMPLE WITH NATURAL PARADIGM AND 5 ALTERNATIVES OR MORE, given the
same condition of mistyping of A SINGLE LETTER.

The difference of greatness in entropy in lojban and natlang examples
is so flagrant you don't even need to measure it, as if we were
speaking of the size of an elephant compared to the size of a mouse.

--
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--e89a8f2348b33281b004c3387993--