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Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:08:10 -0700
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] {fa'a} and expressing "towards" in Lojban.
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On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 11:47:18AM -0300, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:36 AM, Escape Landsome
> <escaaape@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The event of going has an intrinsic (but most often unused)
> > face. This face is the face of an imaginary person who would act
> > the aforementioned going.
>=20
> Yes, although it's not necessarily the face of the person. If
> someone walks backwards from A to B, the direction of going is
> still towards B, even though the person is facing towards A. The
> intrinsic orientation of the going is from origin to destination.
> Many events in which something moves have an intrinsic
> orientation, which is the direction of movement. Other events with
> obvious intrinsic orientation but not about movement are looking
> and talking.
>=20
> Using "fa'a" with "klama" is somewhat redundant because "klama"
> already has a slot for the destination (although sometimes the
> direction of going can be different from the destination at some
> points of the going, when the going is looked at in enough detail
> so it does not happen in a straight line). But with "cadzu" or
> "bajra" it makes perfect sense: "mi bajra fa'a do" -> "lo nu mi
> bajra cu se farna do".

I agree, and to clarify, {mi bajra fa'a lo snanu} is perfectly valid
if you're facing north; it doesn't say anything about the facing *of
the speaker*, which is how people have been using it, or about the
facing of any particular object in the bridi.

I also think {mi bajra fa'a mo'i lo snanu} makes a lot more sense
for "I run south", by the way.

It also seems to me that {fa'a X} ard {fa'a moi Y} could maybe be
different, but the event would need to somehow have a clear and
natural facing that the motion could then be in a different
direction from.

The original context was using {mi dundu ti fa'a do} to mean "I give
ti towards/to you", which is definitely wrong; the fa'a has nothing
to do with the ti, and even if it did, I can certainly place
something on a table away from you and say {mi dunda ti do}, since
dunda is about possession in the abstract and not about handing you
something, IMO.

So, how *do* we walk about the facing of objects in a bridi?

-Robin

--=20
http://singinst.org/ :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li=
'u

--=20
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