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Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 16:31:50 -0400
From: Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
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To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] baby words: position/shape, or something.
References: <20120705172307.GC4293@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <e622fc7e-bf22-432b-a468-5e501d901f6e@googlegroups.com> <CAMKwHj0iuQdXaYbLti4_LQHvQb71U9BuSzK8i6LpCnk4La4+YQ@mail.gmail.com> <20120705185623.GE4293@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <4FF61B58.8040608@lojban.org> <20120706004649.GC3566@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
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Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 06:55:20PM -0400, Robert LeChevalier wrote:
>> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 11:39:57AM -0600, Jonathan Jones wrote:
>>>> I'm honestly surprised that 1) we don't have a gismu for this
>>>> concept, and 2) that no one's really noticed it until recently.
>>>> I would think this concept would be a well-used one.
>>>
>>> That's starting to be my feeling as well; I think it deserves a
>>> gismu.
>>
>> The easy answer to "does it deserve a gismu" is :  Does any
>> language (and in particular our source languages) express this
>> concept in a single word?  If not, then it is hard to claim that
>> it is so basic a concept as to warrant one.
>
> I would be very surprised if you could find a language that *didn't*
> have a word like English's "position" in "you changed position!".
> Did you have some in mind?

I didn't consider the word "position" - it has numerous meanings=20
associated with location in space, not necessarily even referring to=20
location relative to other objects, or to other parts of the same=20
object.  It isn't clear which of them are basic.  I'm not sure whether=20
"position" can be used in all the applications you have in mind, but=20
perhaps.

The root "pose", might also be relevant, though we don't use it for the=20
range of purposes that you are seeking.  Likewise "posture". (But is=20
"pose" derived from "position" or vice versa).

Similarly, we have an unrelated word, "attitude" that is used for some=20
of your applications, but again it has another meaning unrelated to=20
physical positioning, and it isn't clear which is the basic one.

I did a quick look on Google for translations from English into=20
non-Latinate languages, and include the back translations of the words=20
it gave me:

Greek:
> =CE=B8=CE=AD=CF=83=CE=B7	position, place, post, status, situation, site
> =CF=84=CE=BF=CF=80=CE=BF=CE=B8=CE=B5=CF=83=CE=AF=CE=B1	location, site, po=
sition, locality, situation

Russian:
> =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B8=D1=86=D0=B8=D1=8F	position, item, stance, attitu=
de, stand, side
> =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=B6=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=B8=D0=B5	position, situatio=
n, provision, status, location, state
> =D0=BC=D0=B5=D1=81=D1=82=D0=BE	place, space, position, seat, site, spot
> =D1=81=D0=BE=D1=81=D1=82=D0=BE=D1=8F=D0=BD=D0=B8=D0=B5	state, condition, =
status, situation, fortune, position
> =D0=BF=D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B0	pose, posture, position, attitude, stance, plant

Vietnamese:
> ch=E1=BB=95	place, position, location, space, seat, room
> v=E1=BB=8B tr=C3=AD	position, lay, location, locus, terrain, stand
> t=C6=B0 th=E1=BA=BF	posture, position

Finnish
> asema	position, status, station, situation, place, standing
> sijainti	location, position, situation, locality, site, lay
> asento	position, posture, set, setting, attitude, stance
> tilanne	situation, status, position, things, picture, state of affairs
> paikka	place, location, position, site, seat, point

The Greek seems to have a single root, but I don't think it is the=20
concept you have in mind.  The other languages have a variety of roots.

I'm not sure what to conclude.

Notice that looking up a word in multiple languages gives you a variety=20
of synonyms, several of which clearly correspond to some of the gismu.=20
This might be a useful trick for future problem-concepts - express it in=20
English and then look at the words that Google translate comes up with=20
and their back-translations.


lojbab

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