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Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 20:33:09 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] 'Solve & coagula' in lojban?
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{pe} is easy to explain: it's basically "that" or "which". In more grammar
oriented terms, it's the *restrictive relative phrase marker*.
{gau} is derived from {gasnu}, which loosely means "to make something
happen"; when {gau} is placed at the end of a compound word, it changes the
meaning of the word to include someone (or something, technically) who is
making the entire thing happen. When placed elsewhere in a sentence, it
does more or less the same thing, but the grammatical mechanism is
different.
{sel}, which is the affix form of {se} (i.e. the form that's used in
compound words} is the trickiest to explain without getting into the
details of lojban (the details aren't complicated, just different), but you
can think of it as similar to passive voice (without the negative stylistic
baggage), so if {ko'a} and {ko'e} are two pronouns (and they are), {ko'a
fendi ko'e} = {ko'e se fendi ko'a} = {ko'e selfendi ko'a} = "ko'a
partitions ko'e"

The reason I suggested {selfedjo'e} over the shorter {fedjo'e} has to do
with subtle differences in the shape of sentences involving {fendi} vs.
{jorne}

{ko'a fendi ko'e} means "ko'a partitions ko'e", but
{ko'a jorne ko'e} means "ko'a and ko'e are joined", so when they're made
into a compound
{ko'a selfedjo'e} clearly indicates that ko'a is the thing that is both
split and joined, but
{ko'a fedjo'e} leaves more up to just remembering the definition.

Also, I stuck with your original word choices, but you might like to know
that {runta} means "dissolves in", and if you were speaking about literally
dissolving and not just separating, you would probably prefer that.

The difference between your English example and lojban is that without the
{la}, it's a verb, and with the {la} it's a noun (sort of; lojban doesn't
have verbs and nouns in the same way that English does, and we tend to
refer to them by their lojban grammatical terms, but in this case, it's
more or less analogous).

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 6:11 PM,  <Kosmaton@gmx.com> wrote:
> Hello, and thanks!
>
> Regarding your final suggestion:
>
> I like the compound {fedjo'e} - very appropriate in this 'two sides of one
> coin' case.
> Could you explain a bit more what the {sel}, {pe} and {gau} bits do?
> Funny that "names can't be arbitrary phrases in lojban". I suppose it's
> uncommon in many languages really. Still, isn't the {la} like 'the' -- but
> you might paint 'Sidewinder' on a boat, not necessarily 'The Sidewinder'
> even if you'd refer to the boat as 'the Sidewinder' in conversation...?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/TLWVqYnENRUJ.
>
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.



-- 
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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{pe} is easy to explain: it&#39;s basically &quot;that&quot; or &quot;which=
&quot;. In more grammar oriented terms, it&#39;s the <i>restrictive relativ=
e phrase marker</i>.<br>{gau} is derived from {gasnu}, which loosely means =
&quot;to make something happen&quot;; when {gau} is placed at the end of a =
compound word, it changes the meaning of the word to include someone (or so=
mething, technically) who is making the entire thing happen. When placed el=
sewhere in a sentence, it does more or less the same thing, but the grammat=
ical mechanism is different.<br>

{sel}, which is the affix form of {se} (i.e. the form that&#39;s used in co=
mpound words} is the trickiest to explain without getting into the details =
of lojban (the details aren&#39;t complicated, just different), but you can=
 think of it as similar to passive voice (without the negative stylistic ba=
ggage), so if {ko&#39;a} and {ko&#39;e} are two pronouns (and they are), {k=
o&#39;a fendi ko&#39;e} =3D {ko&#39;e se fendi ko&#39;a} =3D {ko&#39;e self=
endi ko&#39;a} =3D &quot;ko&#39;a partitions ko&#39;e&quot;<br>

<br>The reason I suggested {selfedjo&#39;e} over the shorter {fedjo&#39;e} =
has to do with subtle differences in the shape of sentences involving {fend=
i} vs. {jorne}<br><br>{ko&#39;a fendi ko&#39;e} means &quot;ko&#39;a partit=
ions ko&#39;e&quot;, but<br>

{ko&#39;a jorne ko&#39;e} means &quot;ko&#39;a and ko&#39;e are joined&quot=
;, so when they&#39;re made into a compound<br>{ko&#39;a selfedjo&#39;e} cl=
early indicates that ko&#39;a is the thing that is both split and joined, b=
ut<br>

{ko&#39;a fedjo&#39;e} leaves more up to just remembering the definition.<b=
r><br>Also, I stuck with your original word choices, but you might like to =
know that {runta} means &quot;dissolves in&quot;, and if you were speaking =
about literally dissolving and not just separating, you would probably pref=
er that.<br>

<br>The difference between your English example and lojban is that without =
the {la}, it&#39;s a verb, and with the {la} it&#39;s a noun (sort of; lojb=
an doesn&#39;t have verbs and nouns in the same way that English does, and =
we tend to refer to them by their lojban grammatical terms, but in this cas=
e, it&#39;s more or less analogous).<br>

<br>On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 6:11 PM, =A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Kosmaton@gmx.c=
om">Kosmaton@gmx.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; Hello, and thanks!<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt; Regarding your final suggestion:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I like the compound {f=
edjo&#39;e} - very appropriate in this &#39;two sides of one<br>

&gt; coin&#39; case.<br>&gt; Could you explain a bit more what the {sel}, {=
pe} and {gau} bits do?<br>&gt; Funny that &quot;names can&#39;t be arbitrar=
y phrases in lojban&quot;. I suppose it&#39;s<br>&gt; uncommon in many lang=
uages really. Still, isn&#39;t the {la} like &#39;the&#39; -- but<br>

&gt; you might paint &#39;Sidewinder&#39; on a boat, not necessarily &#39;T=
he Sidewinder&#39;<br>&gt; even if you&#39;d refer to the boat as &#39;the =
Sidewinder&#39; in conversation...?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; --<br>&gt; You received=
 this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups<br>

&gt; &quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>&gt; To view this discussion on the web v=
isit<br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/TLWVqYnENR=
UJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/TLWVqYnENRUJ</a>.<br>&gt;<br>

&gt; To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegr=
oups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>&gt; To unsubscribe from this gro=
up, send email to<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>

&gt; For more options, visit this group at<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://groups=
.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=
=3Den</a>.<br><br><br><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .arpis.<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



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