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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Is there any demand for LoCCan3?
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On Saturday, July 7, 2012 9:21:09 PM UTC+4, Veijo Vilva wrote:
>
> On 7 July 2012 07:50, la .lindar. <lindarthebard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Guys currently in San Mateo, please discuss la xorxes's proposals 
>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg>once 
>>> again. Make connectives easier to use and learn until there we get  many 
>>> more lojbanists. It would be too late to fix anything then.
>>
>>
>> While it is, as of right now, ultimately the decision of Robin Powell, I 
>> will, as a member of the BPFK, will not approve the revision I think you're 
>> talking about (making jeks work the same place eks work) and will loudly 
>> voice my opinion against it. I think it's a horrible idea and removes the 
>> conciseness of the language as it stands. There's no reason to remove eks 
>> and I don't think it's that bloody difficult to learn all of the connectors.
>>
>
> I had a look at the "mad" proposals, and in my opinion they don't seem mad 
> at all and would make the language much more concise than the present form 
> is. I'd make one more simplification, i.e., use only GI as a connective 
> medial. The PEG version of the Lojban grammar is slightly more permissive 
> than the old YACC version was and allows a few more KU's to be elided thus 
> removing the YACC derived extra KU problem mentioned in the proposal.
>
> With the additional GI change to the proposal, the PEG grammar can be 
> modified to accept both usage versions without breaking any old texts which 
> now pass the parser (all old text don't pass, BTW.) The minimum change 
> affects only four rules in the BEG, and the resulting parser gives an 
> identical parse for Alice compared to the one produced by my unmodified 
> parser.
>
> This kind of change would keep the underlying grammar identical (except 
> for the ortogonalization of the tanru connectives), only some surface 
> details would change. This would be a much smaller change than xorlo, which 
> was rather a fundamental change and, e.g., for me much more difficult to 
> stomach than these "mad" proposals, which are more akin to normal, fluid, 
> living language evolution a streamlining but a very controlled one compared 
> to the phenomena in natural language evolution. 
>
>     veion
> -- 
>
>   web site: http://galactinus.net/vilva/
>   on Google+: https://plus.google.com/106533767817816079660/posts
>
>
This reply from Veijo says to me much more than all the previous stuff that 
has been discussed in this topic.
doi .lindar. I wasn't arguing for removing any stuff from the language.
I suggest only adopting alternative solutions preserving backward 
compatibility with all old texts (breaking it in extreme cases 
if-and-only-if rubbing out old incompatible texts is easy).

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<br><br>On Saturday, July 7, 2012 9:21:09 PM UTC+4, Veijo Vilva wrote:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-l=
eft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">On 7 July 2012 07:=
50, la .lindar. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lindarthebard@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">lindarthebard@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Guys currently in San Mateo, p=
lease discuss la xorxes's <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromg=
roups#!topic/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg" target=3D"_blank">proposals </a>once again=
. Make connectives easier to use and learn until there we get &nbsp;many mo=
re lojbanists. It would be too late to fix anything then.</blockquote>
<div><br></div></div><div>While it is, as of right now, ultimately the deci=
sion of Robin Powell, I will, as a member of the BPFK, will not approve the=
 revision I think you're talking about (making jeks work the same place eks=
 work) and will loudly voice my opinion against it. I think it's a horrible=
 idea and removes the conciseness of the language as it stands. There's no =
reason to remove eks and I don't think it's that bloody difficult to learn =
all of the connectors.</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I had a look at the "mad" proposals, and i=
n my opinion they don't seem mad at all and would make the language much mo=
re concise than the present form is. I'd make one more simplification, i.e.=
, use only GI as a connective medial. The PEG version of the Lojban grammar=
 is slightly more permissive than the old YACC version was and allows a few=
 more KU's to be elided thus removing the YACC derived extra KU problem men=
tioned in the proposal.</div>
<div><br></div><div>With the additional GI change to the proposal, the PEG =
grammar can be modified to accept both usage versions without breaking any =
old texts which now pass the parser (all old text don't pass, BTW.) The min=
imum change affects only four rules in the BEG, and the resulting parser gi=
ves an identical parse for Alice compared to the one produced by my unmodif=
ied parser.</div>
<div><br></div><div>This kind of change would keep the underlying grammar i=
dentical (except for the ortogonalization of the tanru connectives), only s=
ome surface details would change. This would be a much smaller change than =
xorlo, which was rather a fundamental change and, e.g., for me much more di=
fficult to stomach than these "mad" proposals, which are more akin to norma=
l, fluid, living language evolution a streamlining but a very controlled on=
e compared to the phenomena in natural language evolution.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; veion</div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br>&nbsp; web site: <a href=3D"http://galactinus.net/vilva/" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://galactinus.net/vilva/</a><div>&nbsp; on Google+: <a href=3D"htt=
ps://plus.google.com/106533767817816079660/posts" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/plus.google.com/<wbr>106533767817816079660/posts</a></div>
</div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This reply from Veijo says=
 to me much more than all the previous stuff that has been discussed in thi=
s topic.</div><div>doi .lindar. I wasn't arguing for removing any stuff fro=
m the language.</div><div>I suggest only adopting alternative solutions pre=
serving backward compatibility with all old texts (breaking it in extreme c=
ases if-and-only-if rubbing out old incompatible texts is easy).</div>

<p></p>

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