Received: from mail-qa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.216.56]:56486) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SntZx-00071C-A4; Sun, 08 Jul 2012 08:39:29 -0700 Received: by qaas11 with SMTP id s11sf2773217qaa.1 for ; Sun, 08 Jul 2012 08:39:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Estl+LjogVk+ej6sLo4dfPA8wD8IR+vHvwVpyE/TjfQ=; b=bnVz7mO3P0sRSxm83ANUKE+yScJ1x9P+6Zs/LXUSAIselWabsAD+UnxU4rVVBQwpQA ghk9ro+71iCUB1+/K3jPEVvGPDtkWVc0bantfi03kvpkg93xi15k2xne2XMQ/HcXMakS 0NsTpxe2wsWBRb3olyLNWc7V8Z7u0oDZzAJUo= Received: by 10.52.66.137 with SMTP id f9mr2150787vdt.14.1341761954791; Sun, 08 Jul 2012 08:39:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.221.197 with SMTP id id5ls5875493vcb.5.gmail; Sun, 08 Jul 2012 08:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.69.241 with SMTP id h17mr29221243vdu.5.1341761953481; Sun, 08 Jul 2012 08:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.69.241 with SMTP id h17mr29221242vdu.5.1341761953471; Sun, 08 Jul 2012 08:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vb0-f52.google.com (mail-vb0-f52.google.com [209.85.212.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l12si317303vdf.3.2012.07.08.08.39.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 08 Jul 2012 08:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.52; Received: by vbzb23 with SMTP id b23so9884451vbz.39 for ; Sun, 08 Jul 2012 08:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.70.116 with SMTP id l20mr14974992vdu.19.1341761953348; Sun, 08 Jul 2012 08:39:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.24.193 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jul 2012 08:38:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4FF980BE.4020406@gmx.de> References: <20120708071832.GU3566@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <4FF980BE.4020406@gmx.de> From: Jacob Errington Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 11:38:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: jbonunsla 2012: Post #2 To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / coi On 8 July 2012 08:44, selpa'i wrote: > coi > If you don't mind, I'd like to comment on each point, knowing well that a > lot comes down to opinion: > > Am 08.07.2012 09:44, schrieb la .lindar.: > >> >From my notes (brief summary to be expanded perhaps never): >> >> {tolcliva} is crap and you pretty much should never use it. > > > How is it crap? Is this just your (sg.) opinion or did you (pl.) come to an > agreement about it? You gotta be more specific than "it's crap, you can't > use it". Both tolcliva and mo'u klama / klamu'o have their place. > > >> Agree to disagree on (or attempt to deprecate, or just say 'fuck it' >> regarding) the weird vowel letterals. > > > Some people don't like them, but I find them prettier than .a'y .e'y .i'y > .o'y .u'y. The obvious disadvantage is that .abu is two words so zo can't > quote it. > > >> Agree to disagree on whether time can be {clani} or {barda}. > > > Time can be clani. Time has a dimension and anything with a dimension can be > long or short in that dimension. > > In my opinion, the problem with saying that time can be clani is that you're saying that all events can by clani, by virtue of time simply being events; why is it that using clani would only reflect the temporal dimension rather than any of the other three dimensions of an event? In particular, {ze'a lo clani} is essentially the same as {ze'a lo fasnu poi clani}. Now yes, {clani} carries the implication that the object (or event in this case) is relatively long it its longest dimension. If we could compare the temporal dimension with the spatial dimensions, we could probably derive some kind of logic allowing us to discern whether or not that longest dimension is the temporal one or not, but it seems like we can justify current usage (stuff like {ze'u lo clani}) by saying that the longest dimension of an event is implicitly its temporal dimension. That however has the annoying side effect of making it impossible to refer to one of the spatial dimensions. One interpretation of {citno} is that it simply refers to events, rather than to the "duration of objects" which doesn't make very much sense. Let me get this straight: I'm not invalidating {do citno}. I'm just saying that if we peek at the definition, it says "[relatively short in elapsed duration]" which seems like an extremely important characteristic. Maybe we can use citno to get at that temporal tordu and laldo/tolci'o to refer to that temporal clani. >> We solved the "units per unit" issue with {dikni}, but may still have >> other issues. > > > What's the proposed solution? > > >> Kill with fire all of the 'by standard' places in favour of a BAI that >> does the same thing. > > > I strongly disagree. There are a good number of "by standard" places that > are used a lot, and I don't want to use BAI to get access to them. xamgu3 > and dukse3 are two very common examples. > > >> Stuff we need to discuss tomorrow: > > One thing you might want to look at is how some gismu have built-in jai > while others don't. > Compare for example bebna, which has a jai'd x1 where the x2 is basically a > fai-place, and fenki, which doesn't. This inconsistency slows down the > learning process to some degree. Does anybody else think this could be > improved? > > >> latro'a/tsani's idea of how {ka} works. >> JVS sucks hairy balls (I'll get into more detail) > > It has some bugs, but it's free and works. Sure it could be better, but I > wouldn't be so harsh. > > > mu'o mi'e la selpa'i > > -- > .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u > .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla > .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.