Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:36751) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SpDAc-0003fX-Mk; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:46:47 -0700 Received: by yenl13 with SMTP id l13sf2177839yen.16 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:46:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=9e8sOiSZYQEEwHcFXIu0V9Licuwog2FvsHftLeiSV+c=; b=K/E4Nl5QKe5g33kWOQj90/D705OUzxatD+BAawwxeKGNCSDncM4ajQSjXi2IOMqzyh ELjPCVj7o0u4MYe3px4oGcQAhQA5ngRYYGtRbWnmf+5UTRSz/ikpklPltAp51c5XDedc jd7T5CzPEAeDIwWYkjqJZm6k6QgDisf/AsaDM= Received: by 10.52.174.167 with SMTP id bt7mr2634706vdc.15.1342075592150; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:46:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.100.72 with SMTP id ew8ls855965vdb.9.gmail; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.68.141 with SMTP id w13mr135559vdt.18.1342075591234; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:46:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <41a043f3-4116-45ad-baab-730e89b69637@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <4FFE5CB0.7050506@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again. 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If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On Thursday, July 12, 2012 9:52:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > I don't think gender is important enough to need a word, I think that > gender is too wide a concept to be only one word, and I hate fu'ivla. > > That's the extent of my opinion regarding this. > It might be not relevant for you. It might be relevant for medicine and science. Although lujvo/ bridi might work as well. [...] Content analysis details: (1.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 FRT_ROLEX BODY: ReplaceTags: Rolex 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature ------=_Part_1016_9378370.1342075590751 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, July 12, 2012 9:52:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > I don't think gender is important enough to need a word, I think that > gender is too wide a concept to be only one word, and I hate fu'ivla. > > That's the extent of my opinion regarding this. > It might be not relevant for you. It might be relevant for medicine and science. Although lujvo/ bridi might work as well. > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:12 PM, vitci'i wrote: > >> Let us take as the premise of the discussion that we are creating a new >> selbri that will express gender. Perhaps it's a new gismu; perhaps we're >> changing {cinse}. I currently favor making a type-4 fu'ivla {ceinse}. >> This detail is largely irrelevant, however. Assume it can and may be >> done: what exactly shall be done? >> >> The most important places of a selbri are the x1 and x2, for different >> reasons. x1 is the most accessible to LE; in my opinion the most useful >> gender-related noun is the gender question. x1 is a gender. >> >> x2 is the most accessible in the face of SE. The ideal selbri should be >> constructed in such a way that if you want exactly two of its places, >> almost always one of them is x2. I believe that x2 should be that which >> is gendered. >> >> So far we have: x1 is a/the gender of x2. >> >> As I'm sure you're all aware, Gender is Really Complicated. In practice, >> that probably means that it should be treated as fundamentally >> subjective. Therefore, x3 should be the one who >> judges/classifies/assigns a gender. For gender identity, this will be >> the same as x2 -- the gender is self-assigned. >> >> >> Gender is multifaceted. x4 is the aspect in which x2 is gendered, or the >> action by which x3 assigns a gender or expresses a gender judgment. x4 >> answers the question "in what sense"? >> >> Sex and gender, while certainly not identical, also cannot be entirely >> disentangled, and our understanding of the distinction and relationship >> may evolve over time. There may be more than two members in the set that >> includes them. Therefore, I believe that we should not enshrine the >> distinction by giving them separate selbri; rather, sex is a particular >> x4. When a biologist identifies the sex of an animal, we could say >> {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre le xadni}, or (context willing) {lo skepre te >> ceinse lo danlu}. >> >> Note that x4 is not an action by which a gender determination is >> reached; it would be incorrect to say {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre lo nu >> catlu lo plibu}, unless the scientist is in the habit of looking at the >> genitals of animals of certain sexes but not of animals of other sexes. >> >> There is no default value for x4. An omitted x4 must be construed from >> context. >> >> >> This is intended to cover a broad and complex topic, so there are >> several possible glosses. >> >> x1 is a gender under system/theory x4. >> x2 has a gender. >> x2 is gendered/assigned a gender. >> x3 assigns/construes/treats x2 as gender x1 in respect/by action x4. >> x1 is x2's gender. >> x2 performs gender role x1 in respect/by action x4. >> >> >> Feedback is hereby solicited. In particular, are there things one might >> want to say about sex or gender that this place structure could not >> easily express? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/jtriEO9KzNIJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_1016_9378370.1342075590751 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 9:52:01 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:I don't think gender is important enoug= h to need a word, I think that gender is too wide a concept to be only one = word, and I hate fu'ivla.

That's the extent of my opinion regarding = this.
It might be not relevant for you. It might be re= levant for medicine and science. Although lujvo/ bridi might work as well.<= /div>

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:12 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@g= mail.com> wrote:
Let us take as the premise of the discussion that we are creating a new
selbri that will express gender. Perhaps it's a new gismu; perhaps we're changing {cinse}. I currently favor making a type-4 fu'ivla {ceinse}.
This detail is largely irrelevant, however. Assume it can and may be
done: what exactly shall be done?

The most important places of a selbri are the x1 and x2, for different
reasons. x1 is the most accessible to LE; in my opinion the most useful
gender-related noun is the gender question. x1 is a gender.

x2 is the most accessible in the face of SE. The ideal selbri should be
constructed in such a way that if you want exactly two of its places,
almost always one of them is x2. I believe that x2 should be that which
is gendered.

So far we have: x1 is a/the gender of x2.

As I'm sure you're all aware, Gender is Really Complicated. In practice, that probably means that it should be treated as fundamentally
subjective. Therefore, x3 should be the one who
judges/classifies/assigns a gender. For gender identity, this will be
the same as x2 -- the gender is self-assigned.


Gender is multifaceted. x4 is the aspect in which x2 is gendered, or the action by which x3 assigns a gender or expresses a gender judgment. x4
answers the question "in what sense"?

Sex and gender, while certainly not identical, also cannot be entirely
disentangled, and our understanding of the distinction and relationship
may evolve over time. There may be more than two members in the set that includes them. Therefore, I believe that we should not enshrine the
distinction by giving them separate selbri; rather, sex is a particular
x4. When a biologist identifies the sex of an animal, we could say
{ceinse lo danlu lo skepre le xadni}, or (context willing) {lo skepre te ceinse lo danlu}.

Note that x4 is not an action by which a gender determination is
reached; it would be incorrect to say {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre lo nu
catlu lo plibu}, unless the scientist is in the habit of looking at the
genitals of animals of certain sexes but not of animals of other sexes.

There is no default value for x4. An omitted x4 must be construed from
context.


This is intended to cover a broad and complex topic, so there are
several possible glosses.

x1 is a gender under system/theory x4.
x2 has a gender.
x2 is gendered/assigned a gender.
x3 assigns/construes/treats x2 as gender x1 in respect/by action x4.
x1 is x2's gender.
x2 performs gender role x1 in respect/by action x4.


Feedback is hereby solicited. In particular, are there things one might
want to say about sex or gender that this place structure could not
easily express?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi'e= .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pat= fu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/jt= riEO9KzNIJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_1016_9378370.1342075590751--