On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Gleki Arxokuna= <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 9:52:01 AM UTC+4, aion= ys wrote:

I don't think gender i= s important enough to need a word, I think that gender is too wide a concep= t to be only one word, and I hate fu'ivla.

That's the extent of my opinion regarding this.

It might be not relevant for you. It might be relevant for medicine= and science. Although lujvo/ bridi might work as well.

We already have gismu for the meanings of "gender" that = are salient for medicine and science.
=A0

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:12 PM, vitci'i <celestialcogniti= on@gmail.com> wrote:
Let us take as the premise of the discussion that we are creating a new
selbri that will express gender. Perhaps it's a new gismu; perhaps we&#= 39;re
changing {cinse}. I currently favor making a type-4 fu'ivla {ceinse}. This detail is largely irrelevant, however. Assume it can and may be
done: what exactly shall be done?

The most important places of a selbri are the x1 and x2, for different
reasons. x1 is the most accessible to LE; in my opinion the most useful
gender-related noun is the gender question. x1 is a gender.

x2 is the most accessible in the face of SE. The ideal selbri should be
constructed in such a way that if you want exactly two of its places,
almost always one of them is x2. I believe that x2 should be that which
is gendered.

So far we have: x1 is a/the gender of x2.

As I'm sure you're all aware, Gender is Really Complicated. In prac= tice,
that probably means that it should be treated as fundamentally
subjective. Therefore, x3 should be the one who
judges/classifies/assigns a gender. For gender identity, this will be
the same as x2 -- the gender is self-assigned.

Gender is multifaceted. x4 is the aspect in which x2 is gendered, or the action by which x3 assigns a gender or expresses a gender judgment. x4
answers the question "in what sense"?

Sex and gender, while certainly not identical, also cannot be entirely
disentangled, and our understanding of the distinction and relationship
may evolve over time. There may be more than two members in the set that includes them. Therefore, I believe that we should not enshrine the
distinction by giving them separate selbri; rather, sex is a particular
x4. When a biologist identifies the sex of an animal, we could say
{ceinse lo danlu lo skepre le xadni}, or (context willing) {lo skepre te ceinse lo danlu}.

Note that x4 is not an action by which a gender determination is
reached; it would be incorrect to say {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre lo nu
catlu lo plibu}, unless the scientist is in the habit of looking at the
genitals of animals of certain sexes but not of animals of other sexes.

There is no default value for x4. An omitted x4 must be construed from
context.

This is intended to cover a broad and complex topic, so there are
several possible glosses.

x1 is a gender under system/theory x4.
x2 has a gender.
x2 is gendered/assigned a gender.
x3 assigns/construes/treats x2 as gender x1 in respect/by action x4.
x1 is x2's gender.
x2 performs gender role x1 in respect/by action x4.

Feedback is hereby solicited. In particular, are there things one might
want to say about sex or gender that this place structure could not
easily express?

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