On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Sid <cntrational@gmail.com> wrote:

The problem with that is that "gender" is a real life concept -- = it
doesn't cease to exist just because you've made a word that covers = a
broader topic. I don't think people would have submissiveness or
furriness built in in the same way that gender is built in into
people, so it's a strange idea for things that wouldn't be counted = as
"gender" in most conversation to be treated like other genders.

Assuming you meant "have" instead of "= would have", I disagree; more precisely, I do not believe that there i= s strong evidence that the difference between "being dominant" an= d "being female" is not just a difference in the amount/frequency= of reinforcement the current societal context provides.
=A0

Not to say that the word is a bad idea, of course, just that it's not a good replacement for "gender".

Do you = have a definition for "gender" which does not involve (explicit o= r implicit, e.g. by falling back to "sex") enumeration and so doe= s not preclude genders besides "male" and "female" (whi= ch exist in some societies), but which rules out things like "submissi= ve" and "raccoon" as identities? I can't, so I defer to = you. Besides, if we use such a general word, we could form a tanru/lujvo be= tween {cinse} and it for the more conventional meaning of "gender"= ;.

mi'e cntr

On 12 July 2012 17:11, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
> What if we discarded the idea of a word for "gender" and coi= ned a term for
> something that subsumes the concept. I don't particularly like {ce= inse} for
> being too much like {cinse}, but that's a small detail.
>
> How about:
> x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to x3
>
> Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendere= d" (I'm putting a
> tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying somethi= ng more like
> {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't make sense.) a= nd {tu'a lo
> tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a submissive" or= {tu'a lo arxokuna
> mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify as a raccoon." (e.g. a fu= rry).
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:12 AM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Let us take as the premise of the discussion that we are creating = a new
>> selbri that will express gender. Perhaps it's a new gismu; per= haps we're
>> changing {cinse}. I currently favor making a type-4 fu'ivla {c= einse}.
>> This detail is largely irrelevant, however. Assume it can and may = be
>> done: what exactly shall be done?
>>
>> The most important places of a selbri are the x1 and x2, for diffe= rent
>> reasons. x1 is the most accessible to LE; in my opinion the most u= seful
>> gender-related noun is the gender question. x1 is a gender.
>>
>> x2 is the most accessible in the face of SE. The ideal selbri shou= ld be
>> constructed in such a way that if you want exactly two of its plac= es,
>> almost always one of them is x2. I believe that x2 should be that = which
>> is gendered.
>>
>> So far we have: x1 is a/the gender of x2.
>>
>> As I'm sure you're all aware, Gender is Really Complicated= . In practice,
>> that probably means that it should be treated as fundamentally
>> subjective. Therefore, x3 should be the one who
>> judges/classifies/assigns a gender. For gender identity, this will= be
>> the same as x2 -- the gender is self-assigned.
>>
>>
>> Gender is multifaceted. x4 is the aspect in which x2 is gendered, = or the
>> action by which x3 assigns a gender or expresses a gender judgment= . x4
>> answers the question "in what sense"?
>>
>> Sex and gender, while certainly not identical, also cannot be enti= rely
>> disentangled, and our understanding of the distinction and relatio= nship
>> may evolve over time. There may be more than two members in the se= t that
>> includes them. Therefore, I believe that we should not enshrine th= e
>> distinction by giving them separate selbri; rather, sex is a parti= cular
>> x4. When a biologist identifies the sex of an animal, we could say=
>> {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre le xadni}, or (context willing) {lo ske= pre te
>> ceinse lo danlu}.
>>
>> Note that x4 is not an action by which a gender determination is >> reached; it would be incorrect to say {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre l= o nu
>> catlu lo plibu}, unless the scientist is in the habit of looking a= t the
>> genitals of animals of certain sexes but not of animals of other s= exes.
>>
>> There is no default value for x4. An omitted x4 must be construed = from
>> context.
>>
>>
>> This is intended to cover a broad and complex topic, so there are<= br> >> several possible glosses.
>>
>> x1 is a gender under system/theory x4.
>> x2 has a gender.
>> x2 is gendered/assigned a gender.
>> x3 assigns/construes/treats x2 as gender x1 in respect/by action x= 4.
>> x1 is x2's gender.
>> x2 performs gender role x1 in respect/by action x4.
>>
>>
>> Feedback is hereby solicited. In particular, are there things one = might
>> want to say about sex or gender that this place structure could no= t
>> easily express?
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
>
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