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[87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y11sm11263107eea.13.2012.07.12.11.31.41 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FFF180C.8060000@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:31:40 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.28) Gecko/20120306 Thunderbird/3.1.20 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] &Lang References: <90a7e54c-42fe-4ee0-9693-8155db9a7646@googlegroups.com> <4FFDC7C8.2010707@gmail.com> <237c4ac5-64f3-40fa-81d3-8a97c76dcc5d@googlegroups.com> <1342109844.79789.YahooMailNeo@web184407.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1342109844.79789.YahooMailNeo@web184407.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Let me try harder to explain: Take a variety of predicate logic consisting of predicates, quantifiers and= variables. In normal predicate logic notation, if a given variable is an a= rgument of more than one predicate, it gets repeated. And every bound varia= ble is notated at least twice, once where it is shown bound by quantifier a= nd once where it is argument of a predicate. But this is one and the same v= ariable; the repetition is a mere notational device necessary to linearize = the string. If the notation could be two dimensional, then you wouldn't need to write v= ariables at all. For simplicity's sake, I'll describe a notation for only p= redicates and variables: Use a 2 dimensional grid, infinite in both dimensions. Each 'row' corresponds to a variable. Each 'column' corresponds to a predicate. Predicates are notated by sets of symbols, one symbol for each argument pla= ce. Each argument place symbol is placed on the appropriate row for the var= iable that fills the argument place. That's the basic data structure for predicate--argument structure. A 2-dime= nsional notation can notate it without redundancy. But spoken language is 1= -dimensional. Is there a way of linearizing predicate-argument structure er= gonomically, in such a way that it is not so verbose or so taxing on the me= mory that the advantages of its logical explicitness and unambiguousness ar= e not outweighed? --And. John E Clifford, On 12/07/2012 17:17: > As far as I can figure from the limited information, &'s language differs= from Logjam in two significant respects. > 1. Instead of a predicate with various arguments dripping from it, the co= re utterance is an argument (topic, say) with dangling predicates (comments= -- not the standard usage quite but Logjam is not famous for following pre= cedents in terminology). This is a feasible structure, easily realized in t= wo (and simply in three) dimensions, without anaphora. The case of existent= ial graphs and general topological considerations, however, suggest that an= aphora will be needed in one-dimensional speech. The usual problems with th= at are simplified by the canonical location of topics. Multiple topics incr= ease the complexity of this but not its basic simplicity. Comments come and= go (naturally) while topics run on and on (and so are always available for= connection). > 2. Comments have no inherent places, which need to be filled implicitly w= hen not explicitly, but have only those which are explicitly filled. This m= eans, apparently, that the nature of the connection of a comment to its top= ic has to be specified in (almost) every case, an added nuisance in speech = but probably a simplification in learning (and possible a reduction in the = need for compounds, many of which are just to add a place to an existing pr= edicate or rearrange those places). The bareness of comments means that com= ment words can be raised to topics directly to do business as properties or= events, without a lot of extra detail. > These points are too sketchy to give any notion of the relative size, eas= e or clarity of an &lang as here conceived, but at least it looks feasible = so far. > ** > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.