Received: from mail-vb0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]:55235)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCKvA2oWYARDpiv3_BBoEDHpflQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1SpRCJ-0004OP-Sq; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:45:28 -0700
Received: by vbzb23 with SMTP id b23sf3002624vbz.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:45:13 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from
         :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=KCp0kIaOsfInHtdOUXBZDFOcNagKMOS2z1edBMCqdcw=;
        b=F4frpEsxlkyxRNE5d/o2EFcuk33q7LEQE3zw1W6H51NmcbbEVJBx9T4BeRwx8dNDrw
         q2VS1SKlsYhF6b8a/31fm6Aeu4yUkJKqQmZBHE2/yQnWMJcQUNIDKUmKV8InlQCR10Ot
         JkN03d0+OTObMWxZQYT9qGpMe6oj8veBTyeNQ=
Received: by 10.52.174.167 with SMTP id bt7mr3093339vdc.15.1342129513396;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:45:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.52.69.174 with SMTP id f14ls1472519vdu.2.gmail; Thu, 12 Jul
 2012 14:45:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.75.161 with SMTP id d1mr44188070vdw.2.1342129512815;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:45:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.75.161 with SMTP id d1mr44188069vdw.2.1342129512803;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:45:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-vc0-f175.google.com (mail-vc0-f175.google.com [209.85.220.175])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y4si273995vds.2.2012.07.12.14.45.12
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:45:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.175;
Received: by vcbfy27 with SMTP id fy27so1438761vcb.34
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:45:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.220.108.1 with SMTP id d1mr26330861vcp.19.1342129512600; Thu,
 12 Jul 2012 14:45:12 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.52.24.193 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAMKwHj1wEjCdCjRRhvGLpSrd36bQkPnfhEOr=b26gpQHCrx3eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALMa68oLAfRSeFNJtMeegKGARjFUoptomS0j9gu2qFQfofxZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKwHj2KK5VJ9EFZVC-d2X2taUK2vDja+cvyfFrL-uLJ3gpiAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOQ8VDUPzy+MW52nJv1LxmUz2dC=ap2ECFqvOgXnvsyCACFD+A@mail.gmail.com> <CAMKwHj1wEjCdCjRRhvGLpSrd36bQkPnfhEOr=b26gpQHCrx3eg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:44:52 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOQ8VDWcM0zD_W1LOy8qP0D=LxjJVqOdPi=iZzBks+0Kpp4Uzg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5Blojban=5D_lujvo_for_=22spelling=22=3F_=28was_Re=3A_=5Blojban=2D?=
	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?beginners=5D_How_do_you_write_=22Eyjafjallaj=F6kull=22=3F_=28a_sentence?=
	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?_from_tatoeba=29=29?=
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.175 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

On 12 July 2012 17:39, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>>
>> On 12 July 2012 15:20, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > For one thing, you don't want to be using me'o at all. Spelling isn't
>> > math.
>> >
>> Actually, {me'o} is just fine. How else are you supposed to say "I
>> write the letter 'b'," if not by using {.i mi ciska me'o by.} ({mi
>> ciska by} is out of the question, because by is anaphoric) ?
>
>
> That's not "I write the letter "b". me'o by. is the VARIABLE b.
>

Then could you tell me how to say it?
Also, I have better than good reason to believe that it's NOT the
variable b, given the definition of me'o which I'd assumed you'd know:
"me'o =3D the mathematical expression (unevaluated); convert unevaluated
mathematical expression to sumti."

What is the unevaluated expression "2+2" ? I think it's "2+2". That
leads me to believe that the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", even
if b has the value, say, 4, in which case its evaluated expression is
"4" and not "b".

mu'o mi'e la tsani

>>
>> > The only way I know of to spell a word without using ce'o between each
>> > letter is with lo'u ... le'u:
>> >
>> Using lo'u .. le'u just amounts to a shorthand for {ce'o}, yes. The
>> problem is that if told you {ko ciska lo'u ci ra ki ba na ku te le'u}
>> I'd expect "ci ra ki ba na ku te" to be on the ciska3, not something
>> else. By extension, I'd expect "by a bu ky ny i bu" to be on the
>> ciska3 if I said {.i ko ciska lo'u by abu ky ny ibu le'u}.
>>
>> > lo'u by. .abu ry. dy. .abu le'u tadji lonu ciska lu barda li'u
>> >
>> That suffers from more than one problem, because I'd figure that only
>> abstractions (or descriptions referring to abstractions, of course)
>> could be tadji1. A list cannot be a method; that just doesn't make
>> sense (my answer would be uanai).
>>
>> Again, I suggest using something involving probably LAhE, porsi, and
>> lerfu: {vu'i me'o by abu ky ny ibu lerfu porsi fi vu'i zo bakni}.
>> The rationale behind using vu'i on a quote is that if the quote is a
>> word-quote, the (only?) logical sequence that vu'i can return is a
>> list of letters. I'd suppose that vu'i on a grammatical-text quote
>> returns the list of words. (I differentiate grammatical text quotes
>> from multi-word quotes, but I won't get into that.)
>> The justification for using a sequence in porsi3, which is of type
>> [set] (assuming places are typed, which is what I believe) is that all
>> sequences are also sets (the sequence type inherits all the properties
>> of the set type).
>> Using {vu'i me'o by abu ky ny ibu} is *perhaps* not a good solution
>> (albeit certainly understandable). Maybe, a better solution would be
>> the much longer {me'o by ce'o me'o abu ce'o me'o ky ce'o me'o ny ce'o
>> me'o ibu} which *presumably* parses in the PEG and probably not in
>> jbofi'e, but I'd never expect anyone to *ever* say that, *ever*.
>>
>> mu'o mi'e la tsani
>>
>>
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis
>> > <felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think we should have a lujvo for the relationship between a word an=
d
>> >> its spelling.
>> >> Its definition could be
>> >>   "x1 is a spelling of word x2."
>> >>
>> >> Currently, my best attempt at expressing that in lojban is
>> >>   {ko'e valsi fi'o lerfu porsi ko'a},
>> >> inspired by iesk (more ideas below). Am I missing a better possibilit=
y?
>> >>
>> >> My current idea for a veljvo is {valsi ke lerfu porsi}, giving
>> >> {vlakemlerpoi}
>> >> ({vlalerpoi} being possibly a string of letters (as opposed to other
>> >> letterals)).
>> >>
>> >> An important thing to consider is how the spelling would be expressed=
.
>> >> The
>> >> straightforward representation of a {ce'o}-sequence of individual
>> >> letterals
>> >> would give things like {me'o .e bu ce'o me'o .ybu li'o}, and these
>> >> {ce'o
>> >> me'o}
>> >> are distracting. CLL 17.2 suggests lerfu strings for the purpose of
>> >> spelling.
>> >> I guess we could define the terjvo to be something like {me'o .ebu .y=
bu
>> >> li'o}.
>> >>
>> >> What do you think? Any suggestions?
>> >>
>> >> mu'o
>> >> mi'e .asiz.
>> >>
>> >> On 3 July 2012 11:46, gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Tried translating this one and failed.
>> >> > <How do you write "Eyjafjallaj=F6kull"?> actually means <How do you
>> >> > spell
>> >> > "Eyjafjallaj=F6kull"?> or <Please dictate the spelling of
>> >> > "Eyjafjallaj=F6kull">
>> >> > Any ideas?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> On 3 July 2012 12:16, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > ma tadji lonu ciska zo'oi.Eyjafjallaj=F6kull.
>> >> >
>> >> > Or without using "experimental" cmavo:
>> >> >
>> >> > ma tadji lonu ciska zoi by. Eyjafjallaj=F6kull .by
>> >>
>> >> On 3 July 2012 17:47, iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrote:
>> >> > .i .u'i ki'a xu zoi zoi. Eyjafjallaj=F6kull .zoi se ciska fi'o za'e
>> >> > lerfyporsi
>> >> > .e bu ce'o .y bu ce'o jy. ce'o .a bu ce'o fy. ce'o jy. ce'o .a bu
>> >> > ce'o
>> >> > ly.
>> >> > ce'o ly. ce'o .a bu ce'o jy. ce'o tei .o bu relmoc. bu foi ce'o ky.
>> >> > ce'o
>> >> > .u
>> >> > bu ce'o ly. ce'o ly.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >
>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups
>> > "lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.