Received: from mail-ee0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]:61662) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SpT13-0005SF-Jh; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:42:00 -0700 Received: by eeit10 with SMTP id t10sf621504eei.16 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:41:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ypOBQlEannnAM7rbWGpVpJgJHzDmxkS2bjsm4XyEbEQ=; b=u5Dn5+hV9x6BIK4sVGFCiM7OIUHCSNCqxvNAc8rU55DrBGipFD+iuN4lB7ujQZ925L US425NBjItj7dPPRz2ysjbFeKhFUpTrAhUiDRWyBJrilXxiwVe6Sh2HXEZd/Obsefbd8 tGuuN/yERXIT3Ic/ii8jyTTDiqsidnu2GHc/U= Received: by 10.204.152.197 with SMTP id h5mr8464bkw.21.1342136502095; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:41:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.7.203 with SMTP id e11ls2319461bke.8.gmail; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.205.126.4 with SMTP id gu4mr22378bkc.8.1342136501323; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.205.126.4 with SMTP id gu4mr22377bkc.8.1342136501298; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f170.google.com (mail-lb0-f170.google.com [209.85.217.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e23si1527715bks.0.2012.07.12.16.41.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.170; Received: by mail-lb0-f170.google.com with SMTP id c1so8384189lbg.1 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.86.166 with SMTP id q6mr2039006lbz.6.1342136501051; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.46.36 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:41:41 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5Blojban=5D_lujvo_for_=22spelling=22=3F_=28was_Re=3A_=5Blojban=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?beginners=5D_How_do_you_write_=22Eyjafjallaj=F6kull=22=3F_=28a_sentence?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_from_tatoeba=29=29?= From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0401faed62a2cd04c4aa814b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d0401faed62a2cd04c4aa814b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Jacob Errington wrote: > >> On 12 July 2012 18:52, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jacob Errington >> wrote: >> >> Also, I have better than good reason to believe that it's NOT the >> >> variable b, given the definition of me'o which I'd assumed you'd know: >> >> "me'o = the mathematical expression (unevaluated); convert unevaluated >> >> mathematical expression to sumti." >> >> >> >> What is the unevaluated expression "2+2" ? I think it's "2+2". That >> >> leads me to believe that the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", even >> >> if b has the value, say, 4, in which case its evaluated expression is >> >> "4" and not "b". >> > >> > >> > Yes, the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", however, it is the VARIABLE >> "b", >> > NOT the LETTER "b". We're talking about mathematics here. Math doesn't >> have >> > letters. It has constants, variables, and operations. Things >> REPRESENTED by >> > letters are VARIABLES. >> >> Sure, but what matters is the result, no? If I say "write the >> unevaluated expression 'b'" and I get a "b" on a piece of paper, and >> that's what I wanted to happen, then I've succeeded, haven't I? >> > > I would say no, because a variable is a symbol which represents a numeric > value, possibly unknown, most likely changing according to circumstances, > even possibly imaginary, but a value nonetheless, whereas a letter > represents a phoneme. While it is true that the symbols for both /can/ be > the same, it is not true that they represent the same thing. Regardless of > which, /you don't need to use me'o at all/. {.i ko ciska me'o by.} Means > "You! write the mathematical expression 'b'." {.i ko ciska by.} means "You! > write the letter 'b'." > I have to correct myself. {.i ko ciska by.} means to write what is being referred to by {by.}, which granted usually doesn't make sense. After all, if by. refers to a lo barda cipni, how do you write a big bird? And keep in mind this isn't writing about a big bird, or writing down the words "big bird", but actually writing the big bird itself. > Regardless, in a 100% lojbanic environment, the listener would just >> write {by} on the paper if I told em/them/him/her {.i ko ciska me'o by >> lo papri}. >> > > In any environment where you told someone to write the variable b, they > would would place a vertical line with a connecting closed loop at the > bottom to the right. It's not a Lojbanic-specific thing. > > >> Looking at the definition of {lerfu}, the gimste seems to suggest that >> a letter can be referred to with {la'e zo BY}. Is it thus the case >> that {la'e zo by ce'o abu ce'o...} (which is redundant to {la'e lo'u >> by abu ... le'u}) is the correct way to give a letter list? >> > > No. {zo} only quotes one word. It would either be {la'e zo by. ce'o lu > .abu li'u ce'o ...} or possibly {la'e lu by. .abu ... li'u}. And I'm not > saying either are "correct", except in a grammatical sense. > > >> And, I think I should mention that you haven't answered my question. >> How would you give a letter list? It's good and well to tell everyone >> that they're wrong, but if you suggest no solutions, I'm afraid you're >> only being unproductive. >> > > I have answered your question. That you haven't seen it is not my fault. > > >> mu'o mi'e la tsani >> >> > -- >> > mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> > >> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --f46d0401faed62a2cd04c4aa814b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Jonathan Jones = <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:06 P= M, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12 July 2012 18:52, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote: >> Also, I have better than good reason to believe that it's NOT = the
>> variable b, given the definition of me'o which I'd assumed= you'd know:
>> "me'o =3D the mathematical expression (unevaluated); conv= ert unevaluated
>> mathematical expression to sumti."
>>
>> What is the unevaluated expression "2+2" ? I think it= 9;s "2+2". That
>> leads me to believe that the unevaluated expression "b" = is "b", even
>> if b has the value, say, 4, in which case its evaluated expression= is
>> "4" and not "b".
>
>
> Yes, the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", howeve= r, it is the VARIABLE "b",
> NOT the LETTER "b". We're talking about mathematics here= . Math doesn't have
> letters. It has constants, variables, and operations. Things REPRESENT= ED by
> letters are VARIABLES.

Sure, but what matters is the result, no? If I say "write the unevaluated expression 'b'" and I get a "b" on a pie= ce of paper, and
that's what I wanted to happen, then I've succeeded, haven't I?=

I would say no, because a variable is a sym= bol which represents a numeric value, possibly unknown, most likely changin= g according to circumstances, even possibly imaginary, but a value nonethel= ess, whereas a letter represents a phoneme. While it is true that the symbo= ls for both /can/ be the same, it is not true that they represent the same = thing. Regardless of which, /you don't need to use me'o at all/. {.= i ko ciska me'o by.} Means "You! write the mathematical expression= 'b'." {.i ko ciska by.} means "You! write the letter = 9;b'."

I have to correct myself. {.i ko ciska by= .} means to write what is being referred to by {by.}, which granted usually= doesn't make sense. After all, if by. refers to a lo barda cipni, how = do you write a big bird? And keep in mind this isn't writing about a bi= g bird, or writing down the words "big bird", but actually writin= g the big bird itself.
=A0

Regardless, in a 100% lojbanic environment, the listener would just
write {by} on the paper if I told em/them/him/her {.i ko ciska me'o by<= br> lo papri}.

In any environment where you told= someone to write the variable b, they would would place a vertical line wi= th a connecting closed loop at the bottom to the right. It's not a Lojb= anic-specific thing.
=A0

mu'o mi'e la tsani

> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo= 'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e&#= 39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(= Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--f46d0401faed62a2cd04c4aa814b--