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From: ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:30:31 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again.
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 Content preview:  On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:46 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>wrote:
    > On 07/12/2012 03:47 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > We already have gismu
    or lujvo for the meanings of "gender" that are > > salient for medicine and
    science. > > What are they? > > > > On 07/12/2012 06:41 AM, .arpis. wrote:
    > > What if we discarded the idea of a word for "gender" and coined a > >
    term for something that subsumes the concept. I don't particularly > > like
    {ceinse} for being too much like {cinse}, but that's a small > > detail.
   > > {cinse} was close to what I wanted, so I created {ceinse} as a > "corrected
    version". (I'm assuming that redefining a standard gismu is > not going to
    happen.) > > > How about: x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according
    to > > x3 > > > > Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendered"
    (I'm > > putting a tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying
    > > something more like {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't >
    > make sense.) and {tu'a lo tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a > >
    submissive" or {tu'a lo arxokuna mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify > > as
    a raccoon." (e.g. a furry). > > That's actually too *narrow* -- it doesn't
    allow us to talk about how we > gender inanimate objects and each other.
   (E.g., <http://is.gd/HXdBMy>, > <http://is.gd/aFzoSg>.) > [...] 
 
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On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:46 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 07/12/2012 03:47 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > We already have gismu or lujvo for the meanings of "gender" that are
> > salient for medicine and science.
>
> What are they?
>
>
>
> On 07/12/2012 06:41 AM, .arpis. wrote:
> > What if we discarded the idea of a word for "gender" and coined a
> > term for something that subsumes the concept. I don't particularly
> > like {ceinse} for being too much like {cinse}, but that's a small
> > detail.
>
> {cinse} was close to what I wanted, so I created {ceinse} as a
> "corrected version". (I'm assuming that redefining a standard gismu is
> not going to happen.)
>
> > How about: x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to
> > x3
> >
> > Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendered" (I'm
> > putting a tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying
> > something more like {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't
> > make sense.) and {tu'a lo tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a
> > submissive" or {tu'a lo arxokuna mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify
> > as a raccoon." (e.g. a furry).
>
> That's actually too *narrow* -- it doesn't allow us to talk about how we
> gender inanimate objects and each other. (E.g., <http://is.gd/HXdBMy>,
> <http://is.gd/aFzoSg>.)
>

The use of "gender" in that context is different than self-identification;
it's targeting based on gender, and that's a tanru/lujvo.

>
> Also, we already have {sevzi} for that.
>

I was thinking of {sevzi}, but I wasn't sure if that's permissible usage.

>
> {tu'a le ninmu cu sevzi mi} isn't bad for gender identity, though.
>
>
>
> On 07/12/2012 08:37 AM, .arpis. wrote:
> > Besides, if we use such a general word, we could form a tanru/lujvo
> > between {cinse} and it for the more conventional meaning of
> > "gender".
>
> This overlooks one of my major gripes with {cinse}, which is that
> officially it also includes sexual orientation.
>

Let's solve one problem at a time, right?

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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>
>


-- 
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:46 PM, vitci&#=
39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:celestialcognition@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">celestialcognition@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

On 07/12/2012 03:47 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:<br>
&gt; We already have gismu or lujvo for the meanings of &quot;gender&quot; =
that are<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; salient for medicine and science.<br>
<br>
</div>What are they?<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 07/12/2012 06:41 AM, .arpis. wrote:<br>
&gt; What if we discarded the idea of a word for &quot;gender&quot; and coi=
ned a<br>
&gt; term for something that subsumes the concept. I don&#39;t particularly=
<br>
&gt; like {ceinse} for being too much like {cinse}, but that&#39;s a small<=
br>
&gt; detail.<br>
<br>
</div>{cinse} was close to what I wanted, so I created {ceinse} as a<br>
&quot;corrected version&quot;. (I&#39;m assuming that redefining a standard=
 gismu is<br>
not going to happen.)<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; How about: x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to<b=
r>
&gt; x3<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thus {tu&#39;a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be &quot;I&#39;m male-gendere=
d&quot; (I&#39;m<br>
&gt; putting a tu&#39;a in there because otherwise I feel like I&#39;m sayi=
ng<br>
&gt; something more like {da poi nanmu zo&#39;u da mi ceinse}, which doesn&=
#39;t<br>
&gt; make sense.) and {tu&#39;a lo tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for &quot=
;I&#39;m a<br>
&gt; submissive&quot; or {tu&#39;a lo arxokuna mi mi ceinse} for &quot;I se=
lf-identify<br>
&gt; as a raccoon.&quot; (e.g. a furry).<br>
<br>
</div>That&#39;s actually too *narrow* -- it doesn&#39;t allow us to talk a=
bout how we<br>
gender inanimate objects and each other. (E.g., &lt;<a href=3D"http://is.gd=
/HXdBMy" target=3D"_blank">http://is.gd/HXdBMy</a>&gt;,<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"http://is.gd/aFzoSg" target=3D"_blank">http://is.gd/aFzoSg</=
a>&gt;.)<br></blockquote><div><br>The use of &quot;gender&quot; in that con=
text is different than self-identification; it&#39;s targeting based on gen=
der, and that&#39;s a tanru/lujvo.<br>

</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Also, we already have {sevzi} for that.<br></blockquote><div><br>I was thin=
king of {sevzi}, but I wasn&#39;t sure if that&#39;s permissible usage.<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">


<br>
{tu&#39;a le ninmu cu sevzi mi} isn&#39;t bad for gender identity, though.<=
br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 07/12/2012 08:37 AM, .arpis. wrote:<br>
&gt; Besides, if we use such a general word, we could form a tanru/lujvo<br=
>
&gt; between {cinse} and it for the more conventional meaning of<br>
&gt; &quot;gender&quot;.<br>
<br>
</div>This overlooks one of my major gripes with {cinse}, which is that<br>
officially it also includes sexual orientation.<br></blockquote><div><br>Le=
t&#39;s solve one problem at a time, right? <br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">


<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
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roup/lojban?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .arpis.<br><br>

<p></p>

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