Received: from mail-qa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.216.56]:54482) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SpUPW-0006Hi-1L; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:11:15 -0700 Received: by qaas11 with SMTP id s11sf99464qaa.1 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=RiKVqT7Dv0XeZpJeMkSUdOZX4k2KNRFzTzBfv+a2XKA=; b=Fe3YAnwPs9DmI2TR0p10IDuS3aD2HDpjLGfvm1Jb87A67AYoYyNp9QR8ql1PS+ppYO hzfkI1k+Gb4iQCeXP0bdnClnMe4xkawAn/Nec0HFsfO5Fx1idhhsF0RcByPMexZoK2/e MY0QGqBs+1oCqOPJeKHjsxMxj0qYKv3ppehlQ= Received: by 10.52.36.52 with SMTP id n20mr17628vdj.4.1342141863503; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.230.4 with SMTP id jk4ls1492244vcb.4.gmail; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.88.174 with SMTP id bh14mr271932vdb.6.1342141863051; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.88.174 with SMTP id bh14mr271931vdb.6.1342141863038; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y20si290073vdd.0.2012.07.12.18.11.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.169; Received: by vcbfl10 with SMTP id fl10so2436823vcb.14 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.92.228 with SMTP id cp4mr172312vdb.42.1342141862875; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:11:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.24.193 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:10:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References:

From: Jacob Errington Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:10:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=5Blojban=5D_lujvo_for_=22spelling=22=3F_=28was_Re=3A_=5Blojban=2D?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?beginners=5D_How_do_you_write_=22Eyjafjallaj=F6kull=22=3F_=28a_sentence?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_from_tatoeba=29=29?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Well, according to my interpretation of things, a lo'u quotation amounts to a sequence of zo quotations. If using dereferenced zo quotations is correct, then using dereference zo quotation sequences is certainly correct in producing a sequence of "letters". mu'o mi'e la tsani On 12 July 2012 20:59, .arpis. wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jacob Errington wrote: >> >> On 12 July 2012 19:36, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Jacob Errington >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> On 12 July 2012 18:52, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jacob Errington >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> Also, I have better than good reason to believe that it's NOT the >> >> >> variable b, given the definition of me'o which I'd assumed you'd >> >> >> know: >> >> >> "me'o = the mathematical expression (unevaluated); convert >> >> >> unevaluated >> >> >> mathematical expression to sumti." >> >> >> >> >> >> What is the unevaluated expression "2+2" ? I think it's "2+2". That >> >> >> leads me to believe that the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", even >> >> >> if b has the value, say, 4, in which case its evaluated expression >> >> >> is >> >> >> "4" and not "b". >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yes, the unevaluated expression "b" is "b", however, it is the >> >> > VARIABLE >> >> > "b", >> >> > NOT the LETTER "b". We're talking about mathematics here. Math >> >> > doesn't >> >> > have >> >> > letters. It has constants, variables, and operations. Things >> >> > REPRESENTED >> >> > by >> >> > letters are VARIABLES. >> >> >> >> Sure, but what matters is the result, no? If I say "write the >> >> unevaluated expression 'b'" and I get a "b" on a piece of paper, and >> >> that's what I wanted to happen, then I've succeeded, haven't I? >> > >> > >> > I would say no, because a variable is a symbol which represents a >> > numeric >> > value, possibly unknown, most likely changing according to >> > circumstances, >> > even possibly imaginary, but a value nonetheless, whereas a letter >> > represents a phoneme. While it is true that the symbols for both /can/ >> > be >> > the same, it is not true that they represent the same thing. Regardless >> > of >> > which, /you don't need to use me'o at all/. {.i ko ciska me'o by.} Means >> > "You! write the mathematical expression 'b'." {.i ko ciska by.} means >> > "You! >> > write the letter 'b'." >> > >> >> I think that taking a look at the CLL might clear things up, as arpis >> mentioned. >> Chapter 17 section 10 example two clearly demonstrates use of me'o for >> denoting letters. >> Furthermore, pure use of quotations is definitely incorrect, as >> evidenced in examples four and five. > > > Use of {lu} quotations is incorrect, but {lo'u} quotations may be different > in this case. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regardless, in a 100% lojbanic environment, the listener would just >> >> write {by} on the paper if I told em/them/him/her {.i ko ciska me'o by >> >> lo papri}. >> > >> > >> > In any environment where you told someone to write the variable b, they >> > would would place a vertical line with a connecting closed loop at the >> > bottom to the right. It's not a Lojbanic-specific thing. >> > >> >> You're wrong. I'm definitely not dreaming when I'm saying that the >> variable b in Lojban is {by}. As you must already know, {b} by itself, >> in Lojban, is a cmevla, and even though I'm stating what's blatantly >> obvious here, cmevla are not "mathematical expressions" by ANY >> stretch. >> >> >> >> >> >> Looking at the definition of {lerfu}, the gimste seems to suggest that >> >> a letter can be referred to with {la'e zo BY}. Is it thus the case >> >> that {la'e zo by ce'o abu ce'o...} (which is redundant to {la'e lo'u >> >> by abu ... le'u}) is the correct way to give a letter list? >> > >> > >> > No. {zo} only quotes one word. It would either be {la'e zo by. ce'o lu >> > .abu >> > li'u ce'o ...} or possibly {la'e lu by. .abu ... li'u}. And I'm not >> > saying >> > either are "correct", except in a grammatical sense. >> > >> I now notice that I forgot some {zo} (and lu..li'u). >> I think you fail to understand my understanding of lo'u..le'u which >> I'm almost certain I've explained: {lo'u by cy dy le'u} == {zo by ce'o >> zo cy ce'o zo dy}. >> Using {la'e lu abu by cy li'u} is wrong on a different level, because >> inside a lu..li'u words INTERACT with each other, such that all those >> BY (and ABU) compound to form one variable. >> >> >> >> >> And, I think I should mention that you haven't answered my question. >> >> How would you give a letter list? It's good and well to tell everyone >> >> that they're wrong, but if you suggest no solutions, I'm afraid you're >> >> only being unproductive. >> > >> > >> > I have answered your question. That you haven't seen it is not my fault. >> > >> If by "answered" you're that semantically incorrect use of {tadji}, >> then no, you haven't answered it at all. You've told me my solutions >> are no good, and I've thus made more. I have yet to see you >> reciprocate that behaviour. >> >> >> >> >> mu'o mi'e la tsani >> >> >> >> > -- >> >> > mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> > >> >> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> >> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "lojban" group. >> >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> > For more options, visit this group at >> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "lojban" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> > >> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.