On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jacob Errington= <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12 July 2012 19:36, Jonathan Jon= es <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote= :
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 12 July 2012 18:52, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Also, I have better than good reason to believe that it&#= 39;s NOT the
>> >> variable b, given the definition of me'o which I'= d assumed you'd know:
>> >> "me'o =3D the mathematical expression (unevaluat= ed); convert unevaluated
>> >> mathematical expression to sumti."
>> >>
>> >> What is the unevaluated expression "2+2" ? I th= ink it's "2+2". That
>> >> leads me to believe that the unevaluated expression "= ;b" is "b", even
>> >> if b has the value, say, 4, in which case its evaluated e= xpression is
>> >> "4" and not "b".
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes, the unevaluated expression "b" is "b"= ;, however, it is the VARIABLE
>> > "b",
>> > NOT the LETTER "b". We're talking about mathema= tics here. Math doesn't
>> > have
>> > letters. It has constants, variables, and operations. Things = REPRESENTED
>> > by
>> > letters are VARIABLES.
>>
>> Sure, but what matters is the result, no? If I say "write the=
>> unevaluated expression 'b'" and I get a "b"= on a piece of paper, and
>> that's what I wanted to happen, then I've succeeded, haven= 't I?
>
>
> I would say no, because a variable is a symbol which represents a nume= ric
> value, possibly unknown, most likely changing according to circumstanc= es,
> even possibly imaginary, but a value nonetheless, whereas a letter
> represents a phoneme. While it is true that the symbols for both /can/= be
> the same, it is not true that they represent the same thing. Regardles= s of
> which, /you don't need to use me'o at all/. {.i ko ciska me= 9;o by.} Means
> "You! write the mathematical expression 'b'." {.i ko= ciska by.} means "You!
> write the letter 'b'."
>

I think that taking a look at the CLL might clear things up, as= arpis mentioned.
Chapter 17 section 10 example two clearly demonstrates use of me'o for<= br> denoting letters.
Furthermore, pure use of quotations is definitely incorrect, as
evidenced in examples four and five.

>>
>> Regardless, in a 100% lojbanic environment, the listener would jus= t
>> write {by} on the paper if I told em/them/him/her {.i ko ciska me&= #39;o by
>> lo papri}.
>
>
> In any environment where you told someone to write the variable b, the= y
> would would place a vertical line with a connecting closed loop at the=
> bottom to the right. It's not a Lojbanic-specific thing.
>

You're wrong. I'm definitely not dreaming when I'm saying= that the
variable b in Lojban is {by}. As you must already know, {b} by itself,
in Lojban, is a cmevla, and even though I'm stating what's blatantl= y
obvious here, cmevla are not "mathematical expressions" by ANY stretch.

>>
>> Looking at the definition of {lerfu}, the gimste seems to suggest = that
>> a letter can be referred to with {la'e zo BY}. Is it thus the = case
>> that {la'e zo by ce'o abu ce'o...} (which is redundant= to {la'e lo'u
>> by abu ... le'u}) is the correct way to give a letter list? >
>
> No. {zo} only quotes one word. It would either be {la'e zo by. ce&= #39;o lu .abu
> li'u ce'o ...} or possibly {la'e lu by. .abu ... li'u}= . And I'm not saying
> either are "correct", except in a grammatical sense.
>

I now notice that I forgot some {zo} (and lu..li'u).
I think you fail to understand my understanding of lo'u..le'u which=
I'm almost certain I've explained: {lo'u by cy dy le'u} =3D= =3D {zo by ce'o
zo cy ce'o zo dy}.

No. lo'u ... le'u i= s not equivalent to a string of zo-quotes placed in a sequence using ce'= ;o. It is equivalent to a single lu .. li'u qutoe, except that the inte= rnal contents only need to be in Lojban, they do not need to be grammatical= .
=A0

Using {la'e lu abu by cy li'u} is wrong on a different level, becau= se
inside a lu..li'u words INTERACT with each other, such that all those BY (and ABU) compound to form one variable.

I fail= to see how "the referent of 'b a r d a'" is wrong on /an= y/ level, but it's not a moot point, because I wasn't suggesting th= at it's the correct way to do things, but merely that it's GRAMMATI= CAL.
=A0

>>
>> And, I think I should mention that you haven't answered my que= stion.
>> How would you give a letter list? It's good and well to tell e= veryone
>> that they're wrong, but if you suggest no solutions, I'm a= fraid you're
>> only being unproductive.
>
>
> I have answered your question. That you haven't seen it is not my = fault.
>

If by "answered" you're that semantically incorrect use= of {tadji},
then no, you haven't answered it at all. You've told me my solution= s
are no good, and I've thus made more. I have yet to see you
reciprocate that behaviour.

No, by answered I mean= my responses to what you have said.

>>
>> mu'o mi'e la tsani
>>
>> > --
>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >
>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pa= tfu do zo'o
>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >
>> > --
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>>
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo= 'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
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