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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:05:36 -0500
From: vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>
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To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again.
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On 07/12/2012 09:56 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:52 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
>>>>> How about: x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to
>>>>> x3
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendered" (I'm
>>>>> putting a tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying
>>>>> something more like {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't
>>>>> make sense.) and {tu'a lo tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a
>>>>> submissive" or {tu'a lo arxokuna mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify
>>>>> as a raccoon." (e.g. a furry).
>>>>
>>>> That's actually too *narrow* -- it doesn't allow us to talk about how we
>>>> gender inanimate objects and each other. (E.g., <http://is.gd/HXdBMy>,
>>>> <http://is.gd/aFzoSg>.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> The use of "gender" in that context is different than
>> self-identification;
>>> it's targeting based on gender, and that's a tanru/lujvo.
>>
>> What would you tanru/lujvo together to convey that? sevzi is
>> insufficient to distinguish gender identity from other kinds of
>> self-identification (e.g. nationality/culture); klesi and le'e likewise.
>> cinse is narrower, but as I've mentioned also means sexual orientation,
>> and to distinguish which sense is meant we again need a word that means
>> gender.
>>
>> (If we had a word for sex, gender could be constructed by lujvo as "sex
>> stereotype". But we don't.)
>>
> 
> If you mean sex as in "having this particular sexual chromosome pair", we
> have a lujvo for that:
> jbepibnafei<http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/jbepibnafei>

(Technically it's a fu'ivla.)

I dislike long words for important concepts. And jbepibnafei doesn't
specify chromosomes over (say) genitals; it's presumably most useful in
cases where a clean gender binary is assumed, or where edge cases should
be described in full.

Anyway, I'm certainly not going to say {jbepibnafei ke kulnu xarlei ke'e
sevzi} every time I want to talk about gender identity. If I had the
power to rewrite cinse, gender identity would be {cinse'i}.

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