Received: from mail-gh0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]:57205)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCKvA2oWYARCFvf7_BBoEfEDUgw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1SpX8F-00083V-E8; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:05:38 -0700
Received: by ghbf16 with SMTP id f16sf3214628ghb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from
         :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=quS0KIr68yeo8yR4yxAKA6V7oNpRtzm38rayERPT6oM=;
        b=qss/DR3n4gQgolLV1HggGiM8t7LBjbPHhplrhZTj7PzuOOcMSUfitOJ1fFzc8Svzny
         MI5bUNieCxJL0anBWI2mUSCe/DVJEBl4HDltcHHdByqEOLOEKnVI1stxUgRXbrTibWkp
         WKAkxpheZ6uXvpl24HzVNiqlPumhxv0CVZ5tw=
Received: by 10.52.94.111 with SMTP id db15mr26738vdb.11.1342152325108;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.220.115.146 with SMTP id i18ls1563024vcq.0.gmail; Thu, 12 Jul
 2012 21:05:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.178.166 with SMTP id cz6mr586311vdc.1.1342152324624;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:05:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.178.166 with SMTP id cz6mr586309vdc.1.1342152324613;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:05:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-vc0-f182.google.com (mail-vc0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y4si302676vds.2.2012.07.12.21.05.24
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:05:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.182;
Received: by vcbf1 with SMTP id f1so2382609vcb.13
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:05:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.220.116.3 with SMTP id k3mr419320vcq.26.1342152324490; Thu, 12
 Jul 2012 21:05:24 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.52.24.193 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:05:04 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAMKwHj1QrORjg94YvDueN1iqy0Tdd+GorY5JESKmXydGYyO1nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FFE5CB0.7050506@gmail.com> <CAMKwHj07g9DjkSDct3yQ1Kjq9gYyKzauxKM-inu5Zd5DKryjiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <41a043f3-4116-45ad-baab-730e89b69637@googlegroups.com> <CAMKwHj0pLeb7LhAMxea+mtPQL540LxPMqmrCXH-AaFCyEs=dDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFF61CF.9080807@gmail.com> <CALm==BV3gMfX+uXj-zGbhQUZsZSrCCw6jz1wZEXPFDsr2rwuTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFF8D51.7070002@gmail.com> <CAMKwHj2vD8+7aMDEcaYd9aF6O=mj76p6j9k4teYHgQr-XF5-4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFF9080.5000800@gmail.com> <CAMKwHj1QrORjg94YvDueN1iqy0Tdd+GorY5JESKmXydGYyO1nA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 00:05:04 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOQ8VDXJhqUwmXeBt8rSAuPT5gdYT5L5hbqVv_RH9CrKBqSMsg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again.
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.182 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

On 12 July 2012 23:59, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 9:05 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 07/12/2012 09:56 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:52 PM, vitci'i
>> > <celestialcognition@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> >>>>> How about: x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to
>> >>>>> x3
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendered" (I'm
>> >>>>> putting a tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying
>> >>>>> something more like {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't
>> >>>>> make sense.) and {tu'a lo tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a
>> >>>>> submissive" or {tu'a lo arxokuna mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify
>> >>>>> as a raccoon." (e.g. a furry).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That's actually too *narrow* -- it doesn't allow us to talk about how
>> >>>> we
>> >>>> gender inanimate objects and each other. (E.g.,
>> >>>> <http://is.gd/HXdBMy>,
>> >>>> <http://is.gd/aFzoSg>.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> The use of "gender" in that context is different than
>> >> self-identification;
>> >>> it's targeting based on gender, and that's a tanru/lujvo.
>> >>
>> >> What would you tanru/lujvo together to convey that? sevzi is
>> >> insufficient to distinguish gender identity from other kinds of
>> >> self-identification (e.g. nationality/culture); klesi and le'e
>> >> likewise.
>> >> cinse is narrower, but as I've mentioned also means sexual orientation,
>> >> and to distinguish which sense is meant we again need a word that means
>> >> gender.
>> >>
>> >> (If we had a word for sex, gender could be constructed by lujvo as "sex
>> >> stereotype". But we don't.)
>> >>
>> >
>> > If you mean sex as in "having this particular sexual chromosome pair",
>> > we
>> > have a lujvo for that:
>> > jbepibnafei<http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/jbepibnafei>
>>
>> (Technically it's a fu'ivla.)
>
>
> No, it's a lujvo. It's made by combining the rafsi of various gismu and
> cmavo together. A fu'ivla is a foreign word.
>

It's definitely not a lujvo; I made the word with latro'a. I should
know to which class it belongs.
I hope that anyone who's looked at this word has also looked at the
notes, which should have led the reader to read the lojban definition
as well, because the lojban definition is much clearer as to what
exactly should go in each place. {jbepibnafei} is a zi'evla based of
the rafsi for jbena, plibu, nakni, and fetsi and is intended to be
used to talk about *biological sex* as in "the apparent genitalia
(hence plibu) at time of birth (hence jbena)".

FWIW, latro'a and I couldn't/didn't create any word for gender in the
societal sense.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

>> I dislike long words for important concepts. And jbepibnafei doesn't
>> specify chromosomes over (say) genitals; it's presumably most useful in
>> cases where a clean gender binary is assumed, or where edge cases should
>> be described in full.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm certainly not going to say {jbepibnafei ke kulnu xarlei ke'e
>> sevzi} every time I want to talk about gender identity. If I had the
>> power to rewrite cinse, gender identity would be {cinse'i}.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.