Received: from mail-lb0-f189.google.com ([209.85.217.189]:50804) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SpXlf-0008Uk-NR; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:18 -0700 Received: by lbol5 with SMTP id l5sf1943431lbo.16 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WaUFOFV30TsN56kLp4zVr/04IKYnCuUw2aHEqJ57NHM=; b=630sPe0I3haQ4cUrA+6xXwAsVMFWK7DN4oYuh4+HE9qst7Dfuv1ERbH+Nn+Dx0C4+f GbsUTPyOjpW5rJsXkVqumeLJNqVcEoEQh6pI4kuaFYnTzZrkwO5Cqdd6LLgl6NiMHR93 6SxLORSV4a8KKOgOxwBDPKXaoi8/0JMahK4CY= Received: by 10.204.152.197 with SMTP id h5mr23849bkw.21.1342154767320; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.205.119.129 with SMTP id fu1ls2482015bkc.4.gmail; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.129.81 with SMTP id n17mr100084bks.3.1342154766164; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.129.81 with SMTP id n17mr100083bks.3.1342154766142; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f169.google.com (mail-lb0-f169.google.com [209.85.217.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k7si1677318bks.2.2012.07.12.21.46.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.169; Received: by lbjn8 with SMTP id n8so4914134lbj.0 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.29.166 with SMTP id l6mr46211lbh.68.1342154765523; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.46.36 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:46:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4FFFA544.5070404@gmail.com> References: <4FFE5CB0.7050506@gmail.com> <41a043f3-4116-45ad-baab-730e89b69637@googlegroups.com> <4FFF61CF.9080807@gmail.com> <4FFF8D51.7070002@gmail.com> <4FFF9080.5000800@gmail.com> <4FFFA544.5070404@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:46:05 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0401696308598104c4aec2f4 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d0401696308598104c4aec2f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 10:34 PM, vitci'i wrote: > >>>>> The use of "gender" in that context is different than > >>>> self-identification; > >>>>> it's targeting based on gender, and that's a tanru/lujvo. > >>>> > >>>> What would you tanru/lujvo together to convey that? sevzi is > >>>> insufficient to distinguish gender identity from other kinds of > >>>> self-identification (e.g. nationality/culture); klesi and le'e > likewise. > >>>> cinse is narrower, but as I've mentioned also means sexual > orientation, > >>>> and to distinguish which sense is meant we again need a word that > means > >>>> gender. > >>>> > >>>> (If we had a word for sex, gender could be constructed by lujvo as > "sex > >>>> stereotype". But we don't.) > >>>> > >> Anyway, I'm certainly not going to say {jbepibnafei ke kulnu xarlei ke'e > >> sevzi} every time I want to talk about gender identity. If I had the > >> power to rewrite cinse, gender identity would be {cinse'i}. > >> > > > > Good, because you'd be wrong to do so. Gender identity != genetic sex. > > Did you read the rest of what I wrote? The problem I'm trying to solve > is that there aren't words that are capable of specifying the concept > "gender". Since sex was one of the nearest misses, I constructed a > phrase including it. > I'm saying that the English word "gender" is too broad to be one Lojban word, and that the only portion of it that is important is biological. Societal gender is not, to me, important at all. It doesn't matter to me what gender- in any sense of the word- a person is, except in the biological sense, and even then, only for reasons of biological/medicinal purposes. (Like if I want to have kids, or I need to treat a relevant illness.) > > (Maybe {ko'a jbena zi'o zi'o zi'o fi'o plibu ko'e}) > > I don't think {zi'o} is what you want here: you've said that ko'a is > born never, nowhere, and to no one, but nevertheless is born. > No, that would be noda, not zi'o. zi'o removes that place from the relationship, it doesn't fill it with "does not exist". -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --f46d0401696308598104c4aec2f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 10:34 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> The use of "gender" in tha= t context is different than
>>>> self-identification;
>>>>> it's targeting based on gender, and that's a t= anru/lujvo.
>>>>
>>>> What would you tanru/lujvo together to convey that? sevzi = is
>>>> insufficient to distinguish gender identity from other kin= ds of
>>>> self-identification (e.g. nationality/culture); klesi and = le'e likewise.
>>>> cinse is narrower, but as I've mentioned also means se= xual orientation,
>>>> and to distinguish which sense is meant we again need a wo= rd that means
>>>> gender.
>>>>
>>>> (If we had a word for sex, gender could be constructed by = lujvo as "sex
>>>> stereotype". But we don't.)
>>>>
>> Anyway, I'm certainly not going to say= {jbepibnafei ke kulnu xarlei ke'e
>> sevzi} every time I want to talk about gender identity. If I had t= he
>> power to rewrite cinse, gender identity would be {cinse'i}. >>
>
> Good, because you'd be wrong to do so. Gender identity !=3D geneti= c sex.

Did you read the rest of what I wrote? The problem I'm trying to = solve
is that there aren't words that are capable of specifying the concept "gender". Since sex was one of the nearest misses, I constructed = a
phrase including it.

I'm saying that the Engli= sh word "gender" is too broad to be one Lojban word, and that the= only portion of it that is important is biological. Societal gender is not= , to me, important at all. It doesn't matter to me what gender- in any = sense of the word- a person is, except in the biological sense, and even th= en, only for reasons of biological/medicinal purposes. (Like if I want to h= ave kids, or I need to treat a relevant illness.)
=A0
> (Maybe {ko'a jbena zi'o zi'o zi'o fi= 'o plibu ko'e})

I don't think {zi'o} is what you want here: you've said t= hat ko'a is
born never, nowhere, and to no one, but nevertheless is born.

No, that would be noda, not zi'o. zi'o removes that pla= ce from the relationship, it doesn't fill it with "does not exist&= quot;.


--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

= .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--f46d0401696308598104c4aec2f4--