Received: from mail-ee0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]:55982)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCt8v7_BBoEJF67mQ@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1SpYuL-0000Xj-2p; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:59:21 -0700
Received: by eeit10 with SMTP id t10sf722303eei.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:59:09 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=oUT9V95MqODsnvZXkp1mMEWcnC677X+LNL3QWkrtTWE=;
        b=mA0TDSWAgK8reUwLSY1YZ4Eg1c0o2BiWkcLZn37X7eBGcTdDkiLLHsTVpMroevi/d7
         1nFaGcoOhZG7/E+rkWEqA/ZF4QG2H+UiI2g5ov3Fg6AXMSfcWnL3O+Hh0L+u8RcDUsq7
         WK72kW/dFJqFrGdzOg6fxw8ytr1O0jAPBlNMQ=
Received: by 10.204.226.81 with SMTP id iv17mr25955bkb.23.1342159149737;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:59:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.205.119.129 with SMTP id fu1ls2502066bkc.4.gmail; Thu, 12 Jul
 2012 22:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.151.213 with SMTP id d21mr119248bkw.0.1342159148147;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.151.213 with SMTP id d21mr119247bkw.0.1342159148127;
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lb0-f171.google.com (mail-lb0-f171.google.com [209.85.217.171])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p5si1712633bks.1.2012.07.12.22.59.08
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.171;
Received: by mail-lb0-f171.google.com with SMTP id m4so5840271lbo.30
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.152.146.101 with SMTP id tb5mr1127152lab.0.1342159147930; Thu,
 12 Jul 2012 22:59:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.152.46.36 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:59:07 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <4FFFAF56.7050901@gmail.com>
References: <4FFE5CB0.7050506@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj07g9DjkSDct3yQ1Kjq9gYyKzauxKM-inu5Zd5DKryjiA@mail.gmail.com>
	<41a043f3-4116-45ad-baab-730e89b69637@googlegroups.com>
	<CAMKwHj0pLeb7LhAMxea+mtPQL540LxPMqmrCXH-AaFCyEs=dDw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFF61CF.9080807@gmail.com>
	<CALm==BV3gMfX+uXj-zGbhQUZsZSrCCw6jz1wZEXPFDsr2rwuTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFF8D51.7070002@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj2vD8+7aMDEcaYd9aF6O=mj76p6j9k4teYHgQr-XF5-4Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFF9080.5000800@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj3TR6E4zMgBDP8BLVF00s1Oe3o8B7j=kODiYSSvnAnW7w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFFA544.5070404@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj1KY=QTmiV1sAGq_EpVw5MYAWnN6_31f6cK5FLNesT9Zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFFAF56.7050901@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 23:59:07 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj2dH8wLdaaC6RGqQhegibxLgqWmP5NC5oOZS-6kWNh7dw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again.
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.171 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f2348b33e92e604c4afc706
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

--e89a8f2348b33e92e604c4afc706
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:17 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 07/12/2012 11:46 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > I'm saying that the English word "gender" is too broad to be one Lojban
> > word, and that the only portion of it that is important is biological.
> > Societal gender is not, to me, important at all. It doesn't matter to me
> > what gender- in any sense of the word- a person is, except in the
> > biological sense, and even then, only for reasons of biological/medicinal
> > purposes. (Like if I want to have kids, or I need to treat a relevant
> > illness.)
>
> Even if you personally don't care about societal gender, it's still a
> thing that a lot of people care about and are affected by. You don't get
> to delete words from the dictionary just because they aren't to your taste.
>

Firstly, it's not a matter of deletion. They don't exist.

Secondly, it's not a matter of taste. It has nothing to do with liking or
disliking. It's a matter of importance. Societal gender is nothing more
than a means of classifying- and thus segregating- people who don't fit
some "norm".

Thirdly, I have yet to see a definition of "Societal Gender" that isn't so
horrendously broad as to be essentially meaningless, which may in fact be
part of the reason why it's so difficult for you to find a Lojban word.

How about, instead of arguing about the importance or lack thereof of such
a word, you divide the uber-concept into it's constituent pieces.

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--e89a8f2348b33e92e604c4afc706
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:17 PM, vitci&#39;i <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:celestialcognition@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">celestialcognition@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On 07/12/2012 11:46 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:<br>
&gt; I&#39;m saying that the English word &quot;gender&quot; is too broad t=
o be one Lojban<br>
&gt; word, and that the only portion of it that is important is biological.=
<br>
&gt; Societal gender is not, to me, important at all. It doesn&#39;t matter=
 to me<br>
&gt; what gender- in any sense of the word- a person is, except in the<br>
&gt; biological sense, and even then, only for reasons of biological/medici=
nal<br>
&gt; purposes. (Like if I want to have kids, or I need to treat a relevant<=
br>
&gt; illness.)<br>
<br>
</div>Even if you personally don&#39;t care about societal gender, it&#39;s=
 still a<br>
thing that a lot of people care about and are affected by. You don&#39;t ge=
t<br>
to delete words from the dictionary just because they aren&#39;t to your ta=
ste.<br clear=3D"all"></blockquote><div><br>Firstly, it&#39;s not a matter =
of deletion. They don&#39;t exist.<br><br>Secondly, it&#39;s not a matter o=
f taste. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. It&#39;s a matter o=
f importance. Societal gender is nothing more than a means of classifying- =
and thus segregating- people who don&#39;t fit some &quot;norm&quot;.<br>
<br>Thirdly, I have yet to see a definition of &quot;Societal Gender&quot; =
that isn&#39;t so horrendously broad as to be essentially meaningless, whic=
h may in fact be part of the reason why it&#39;s so difficult for you to fi=
nd a Lojban word.<br>
<br>How about, instead of arguing about the importance or lack thereof of s=
uch a word, you divide the uber-concept into it&#39;s constituent pieces.<b=
r><br></div></div>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko=
 cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--e89a8f2348b33e92e604c4afc706--