Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:64886) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Spi7C-000789-LV; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:19 -0700 Received: by weyu3 with SMTP id u3sf1468625wey.16 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=odMn4FsU3Mxa4sez9iotf5dHwZHkFWiplGC672ygpJ0=; b=eFALUigU1kBFE6SQIntrZhdyK3JahrtAnvR9p8UR7Lt2prZvycbEpFOHX+yaziBAKn JiNs91DaePx/eAljd7bDG8P9HvEDbf3RSJdgOiE73if4372cakYQpA4hB2OhRNTzEZ+v cX+6rje01ap1Ec6sRcQFemObSZKnHyOmwpr3s= Received: by 10.204.226.81 with SMTP id iv17mr104059bkb.23.1342194543113; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.7.203 with SMTP id e11ls2950892bke.8.gmail; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.152.23 with SMTP id e23mr263375bkw.6.1342194541286; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.152.23 with SMTP id e23mr263374bkw.6.1342194541265; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com (mail-lb0-f176.google.com [209.85.217.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j4si2040599bkj.3.2012.07.13.08.49.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.176; Received: by mail-lb0-f176.google.com with SMTP id j14so6832636lbo.21 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.41.2 with SMTP id b2mr1114194lbl.58.1342194541053; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.46.36 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:49:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4FFFCCAD.5070809@gmail.com> References: <4FFE5CB0.7050506@gmail.com> <41a043f3-4116-45ad-baab-730e89b69637@googlegroups.com> <4FFF61CF.9080807@gmail.com> <4FFF8D51.7070002@gmail.com> <4FFF9080.5000800@gmail.com> <4FFFA544.5070404@gmail.com> <4FFFAF56.7050901@gmail.com> <4FFFCCAD.5070809@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 09:49:00 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4efe2a28d6c70b04c4b80470 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --e0cb4efe2a28d6c70b04c4b80470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:22 AM, vitci'i wrote: > On 07/13/2012 12:59 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:17 PM, vitci'i >wrote: > > > >> On 07/12/2012 11:46 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >>> I'm saying that the English word "gender" is too broad to be one Lojban > >>> word, and that the only portion of it that is important is biological. > >>> Societal gender is not, to me, important at all. It doesn't matter to > me > >>> what gender- in any sense of the word- a person is, except in the > >>> biological sense, and even then, only for reasons of > biological/medicinal > >>> purposes. (Like if I want to have kids, or I need to treat a relevant > >>> illness.) > >> > >> Even if you personally don't care about societal gender, it's still a > >> thing that a lot of people care about and are affected by. You don't get > >> to delete words from the dictionary just because they aren't to your > taste. > >> > > > > Firstly, it's not a matter of deletion. They don't exist. > > > > Secondly, it's not a matter of taste. It has nothing to do with liking or > > disliking. It's a matter of importance. Societal gender is nothing more > > than a means of classifying- and thus segregating- people who don't fit > > some "norm". > > > > Thirdly, I have yet to see a definition of "Societal Gender" that isn't > so > > horrendously broad as to be essentially meaningless, which may in fact be > > part of the reason why it's so difficult for you to find a Lojban word. > > > > How about, instead of arguing about the importance or lack thereof of > such > > a word, you divide the uber-concept into it's constituent pieces. > > I believe I did: gender is a strongly sex-correlated stereotype. > I think you want to come up with a different definition. Stereotypes are most definitely not deserving of words. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e0cb4efe2a28d6c70b04c4b80470 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 1:22 AM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com> wrote:
On 07/13/2012 12:59 AM, Jonathan Jo= nes wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:17 PM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2012 11:46 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
>>> I'm saying that the English word "gender" is too= broad to be one Lojban
>>> word, and that the only portion of it that is important is bio= logical.
>>> Societal gender is not, to me, important at all. It doesn'= t matter to me
>>> what gender- in any sense of the word- a person is, except in = the
>>> biological sense, and even then, only for reasons of biologica= l/medicinal
>>> purposes. (Like if I want to have kids, or I need to treat a r= elevant
>>> illness.)
>>
>> Even if you personally don't care about societal gender, it= 9;s still a
>> thing that a lot of people care about and are affected by. You don= 't get
>> to delete words from the dictionary just because they aren't t= o your taste.
>>
>
> Firstly, it's not a matter of deletion. They don't exist.
>
> Secondly, it's not a matter of taste. It has nothing to do with li= king or
> disliking. It's a matter of importance. Societal gender is nothing= more
> than a means of classifying- and thus segregating- people who don'= t fit
> some "norm".
>
> Thirdly, I have yet to see a definition of "Societal Gender"= that isn't so
> horrendously broad as to be essentially meaningless, which may in fact= be
> part of the reason why it's so difficult for you to find a Lojban = word.
>
> How about, instead of arguing about the importance or lack thereof of = such
> a word, you divide the uber-concept into it's constituent pieces.<= br>
I believe I did: gender is a strongly sex-correlated stereotype= .

I think you want to come up with a diffe= rent definition. Stereotypes are most definitely not deserving of words.
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai k= o cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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