Received: from mail-ey0-f189.google.com ([209.85.215.189]:61857)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDK6YGABRoE0kVoMw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1SplP0-0000XC-Am; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:19:58 -0700
Received: by eaad14 with SMTP id d14sf2255942eaa.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:19:39 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=nB20u6cx/DArga7RA689cqLIRO3HBtkCHEcvzq8lNm4=;
        b=wEjsgJdJnd5c/GXnJniGQaxhX2rbpLdExYpY+lxJjzG1AkxV0VpdVDhtfloyOho72F
         dxPgJszh1hqu/Ev5rkjaQhcLF8EQ3V6uq7kBQlxRArSIBXyzzFXw5pVvOGQth4KQgM7t
         FkbXiulZMGbmQ+gFGBkVUDX9CWmsQOiKbThUI=
Received: by 10.204.156.78 with SMTP id v14mr161228bkw.22.1342207178747;
        Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:19:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.204.129.214 with SMTP id p22ls3355599bks.7.gmail; Fri, 13 Jul
 2012 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.152.23 with SMTP id e23mr342651bkw.6.1342207176883;
        Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.152.23 with SMTP id e23mr342650bkw.6.1342207176857;
        Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lb0-f177.google.com (mail-lb0-f177.google.com [209.85.217.177])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e23si2147912bks.0.2012.07.13.12.19.36
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.177;
Received: by lbbgg6 with SMTP id gg6so6787848lbb.22
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.112.86.166 with SMTP id q6mr1394330lbz.6.1342207176460; Fri,
 13 Jul 2012 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.152.46.36 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <1342203418.26085.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <4FFE5CB0.7050506@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj07g9DjkSDct3yQ1Kjq9gYyKzauxKM-inu5Zd5DKryjiA@mail.gmail.com>
	<41a043f3-4116-45ad-baab-730e89b69637@googlegroups.com>
	<CAMKwHj0pLeb7LhAMxea+mtPQL540LxPMqmrCXH-AaFCyEs=dDw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFF61CF.9080807@gmail.com>
	<CALm==BV3gMfX+uXj-zGbhQUZsZSrCCw6jz1wZEXPFDsr2rwuTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFF8D51.7070002@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj2vD8+7aMDEcaYd9aF6O=mj76p6j9k4teYHgQr-XF5-4Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFF9080.5000800@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj3TR6E4zMgBDP8BLVF00s1Oe3o8B7j=kODiYSSvnAnW7w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFFA544.5070404@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj1KY=QTmiV1sAGq_EpVw5MYAWnN6_31f6cK5FLNesT9Zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFFAF56.7050901@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj2dH8wLdaaC6RGqQhegibxLgqWmP5NC5oOZS-6kWNh7dw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FFFCCAD.5070809@gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj2cQcLHS4RAe_gCbWHS7TqeG0jFfzgERv6aqfJW=x5gOA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1342203418.26085.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:19:36 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj2yMB9d3F+YTbet6ieWs_0T=HKLOhQvQiUC2=xG_Zuqtg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Gender, yet again.
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.177 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0401faedf7c96d04c4baf5cb
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

--f46d0401faedf7c96d04c4baf5cb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Thank you, John. That was exactly what I was getting at when I said that
"gender" is too broad.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:16 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>wrote:

> Just back from the General convention of the Episcopal Church, so I have
> heard "gender" up to here.  From all of that, I gather that it might be
> more useful to search for a number of particular terms, rather than a
> general one like "gender".  Leaving aside sex (at least two definitions,
> one genetic with about a half dozen slots, one plumbing with an at least
> two dimensional field with countless cluster points) and sexual orientation
> (presented as a linear array with about a half dozen cluster points, but
> also implicitly two such arrays, differing loosely by sex), there remain
> gender roles (differing from one micro society to another and covering
> areas from personal hygiene to crafts and beyond) gender roling (conforming
> to some roles -- a matter of degree as well which areas), gender identity
> (what you say you are -- there seem to be at least five easy categories
> here), gender expression (what you look to be to others -- it's not clear
> whether this includes pseudos or that is just a byproduct of ineptness --
> at least as many categories as identity) and gender status (what you can
> get the government, etc., to say you are).  I'm sure I missed some, but
> this is enough to start, not merely looking for terms to match these but
> also specify at least some of the cluster points in the various maps (some
> of these clusters are rather small but often the more interesting for al
> that).
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> **
>
>   --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>



-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--f46d0401faedf7c96d04c4baf5cb
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you, John. That was exactly what I was getting at when I said that &q=
uot;gender&quot; is too broad.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Ju=
l 13, 2012 at 12:16 PM, John E Clifford <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">kali9putra@yahoo.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div><span>Just back from the Gener=
al convention of the Episcopal Church, so I have heard &quot;gender&quot; u=
p to here.=A0 From all of that, I gather that it might be more useful to se=
arch for a number of particular terms, rather than a general one like &quot=
;gender&quot;.=A0 Leaving aside sex (at least two definitions, one genetic =
with about a half dozen slots, one plumbing with an at least two dimensiona=
l field with countless cluster points) and sexual orientation (presented as=
 a linear array with about a half dozen cluster points, but also implicitly=
 two such arrays, differing loosely by sex), there remain gender roles (dif=
fering from one micro society to another and covering areas from personal h=
ygiene to crafts and beyond) gender roling (conforming to some roles -- a m=
atter of degree as well which areas), gender identity (what you say
 you are -- there seem to be at least five easy categories here), gender ex=
pression (what you look to be to others -- it&#39;s not clear whether this =
includes pseudos or that is just a byproduct of ineptness -- at least as ma=
ny categories as identity) and gender status (what you can get the governme=
nt, etc., to say you are).=A0 I&#39;m sure I missed some, but this is enoug=
h to start, not merely looking for terms to match these but also specify at=
 least some of the cluster points in the various maps (some of these cluste=
rs are rather small but often the more interesting for al that).<br>
</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"fon=
t-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style=
=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div =
dir=3D"ltr">
 <font face=3D"Arial"> <hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold"><=
/span></b></font><br> </div><br></div> </div>=20
 </div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bun=
subscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com</a>.<br>

For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den</a>.<br>


</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>
<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--f46d0401faedf7c96d04c4baf5cb--