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Subject: Re: [lojban] baby words, sort of: catlu vs. zgana
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On Friday, November 11, 2011 2:17:55 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
>
> In English we have:
>
> look - see
> listen - hear
> touch - feel
> sniff - smell
> taste - taste
>
> where the second word in each pair describes an experience while the
> first one describes an action one takes in order to have that
> experience. ("taste" can work both ways, action "I tasted the soup to
> see whether it needed more salt", or experience "I tasted something
> funny in the soup". "smell" and "feel" too can work both ways.)
>
> Lojban doesn't have gismu for most of those:
>
> catlu - viska
> ----- - tirna
> pencu - -----
> ----- - sumne
> ----- - -----
>
> My understanding is that "zgana" and "ganse" were meant to be the
> general words for each column, so we could have:
>
> catlu - viska
> kerzga - tirna
> pencu - pilga'e
> zbizga - sumne
> tacyzga - tacyga'e
>
> Or in fully regular form:
>
> kalzga - kalga'e
> kerzga - kerga'e
> pilzga - pilga'e
> zbizga - zbiga'e
> tacyzga - tacyga'e
>
> There are however two problems with all of this.
>
> One problem is that all the words used to define "zgana" in English in
> the gi'uste are used almost exclusively with sight, and as Pierre
> pointed out they seem to mean something more like a prolonged
> intentional viska than just directing some sense in order to perceive.
> I believe this is just a case of bad gloss words, since English has no
> convenient word for the intended concept. It is clear that despite the
> gloss words, "zgana" is not restricted to sight, because it has a
> place for the means of sensing.
>
> The other problem is the property in x2 of ganse. I think gismu that
> have a property argument and no argument for the thing with the
> property are just wrong. Fortunately there are not many of them. My
> policy is to just ignore the gi'uste about this.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
On Friday, November 11, 2011 3:48:25 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
>
> 2011/11/10 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> >
> > Or in fully regular form:
> >
> > kalzga - kalga'e
> > kerzga - kerga'e
> > pilzga - pilga'e
> > zbizga - zbiga'e
> > tacyzga - tacyga'e
>
> Those are the ones derived from the with-what, but there's also the
> series derived from the what:
>
> vinzga - vinga'e
> snazga - snaga'e
> te'uzga - te'urga'e
> panzga - panga'e
> vu'izga - vu'irga'e
>
> at least one of which has actually been used.
>
I suggest making valsi about senses as basic in this example (as you can=20
touch something with your eye but it wouldn't be vision).
zgana fi lo nu viska   - viska
zgana fi lo nu tirna    - tirna
? - ? (tactile sense)
zgana fi lo nu sumne- sumne
? - ? (taste)

Although you might argue that my solution leaves two senses untranslated=20
it's actually the matter of what your tongue is supposed to do.
Do you think that it necessarily must have the sense of taste?
ju'o some animals might taste something using their limbs.

Either we create two words for this basic senses (tactition, gustation) or=
=20
clarify the meanings of those organs (skin, tongue).

It's your choice to use lujvo but my choice is to give definitions to those=
=20
lujvo using deep gismu structure only.
It seems to be impossible. Two words for main senses are absent.

--=20
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<br><br>On Friday, November 11, 2011 2:17:55 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">In English we have:<p>look - see<br>l=
isten - hear<br>touch - feel<br>sniff - smell<br>taste - taste</p><p>where =
the second word in each pair describes an experience while the<br>first one=
 describes an action one takes in order to have that<br>experience. ("taste=
" can work both ways, action "I tasted the soup to<br>see whether it needed=
 more salt", or experience "I tasted something<br>funny in the soup". "smel=
l" and "feel" too can work both ways.)</p><p>Lojban doesn't have gismu for =
most of those:</p><p>catlu - viska<br>----- - tirna<br>pencu - -----<br>---=
-- - sumne<br>----- - -----</p><p>My understanding is that "zgana" and "gan=
se" were meant to be the<br>general words for each column, so we could have=
:</p><p>catlu - viska<br>kerzga - tirna<br>pencu - pilga'e<br>zbizga - sumn=
e<br>tacyzga - tacyga'e</p><p>Or in fully regular form:</p><p>kalzga - kalg=
a'e<br>kerzga - kerga'e<br>pilzga - pilga'e<br>zbizga - zbiga'e<br>tacyzga =
- tacyga'e</p><p>There are however two problems with all of this.</p><p>One=
 problem is that all the words used to define "zgana" in English in<br>the =
gi'uste are used almost exclusively with sight, and as Pierre<br>pointed ou=
t they seem to mean something more like a prolonged<br>intentional viska th=
an just directing some sense in order to perceive.<br>I believe this is jus=
t a case of bad gloss words, since English has no<br>convenient word for th=
e intended concept. It is clear that despite the<br>gloss words, "zgana" is=
 not restricted to sight, because it has a<br>place for the means of sensin=
g.</p><p>The other problem is the property in x2 of ganse. I think gismu th=
at<br>have a property argument and no argument for the thing with the<br>pr=
operty are just wrong. Fortunately there are not many of them. My<br>policy=
 is to just ignore the gi'uste about this.</p><p>mu'o mi'e xorxes<br></p></=
blockquote><div>On Friday, November 11, 2011 3:48:25 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote=
:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bord=
er-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-styl=
e: solid; padding-left: 1ex; ">2011/11/10 Jorge Llamb=EDas &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;:=
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Or in fully regular form:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; kalzga - kalga'e=
<br>&gt; kerzga - kerga'e<br>&gt; pilzga - pilga'e<br>&gt; zbizga - zbiga'e=
<br>&gt; tacyzga - tacyga'e<p>Those are the ones derived from the with-what=
, but there's also the<br>series derived from the what:</p><p>vinzga - ving=
a'e<br>snazga - snaga'e<br>te'uzga - te'urga'e<br>panzga - panga'e<br>vu'iz=
ga - vu'irga'e</p><p>at least one of which has actually been used.</p></blo=
ckquote>I suggest making valsi about senses as basic in this example (as yo=
u can touch something with your eye but it wouldn't be vision).</div><div>z=
gana fi lo nu viska &nbsp; - viska</div><div>zgana fi lo nu&nbsp;tirna &nbs=
p; &nbsp;- tirna</div><div>? - ? (tactile sense)</div><div>zgana fi lo nu&n=
bsp;sumne- sumne</div><div>? - ? (taste)<br><div><br></div></div><div>Altho=
ugh you might argue that my solution leaves two senses untranslated it's ac=
tually the matter of what your tongue is supposed to do.</div><div>Do you t=
hink that it necessarily must have the sense of taste?</div><div>ju'o some =
animals might taste something using their limbs.</div><div><br></div><div>E=
ither we create two words for this basic senses (tactition, gustation) or c=
larify the meanings of those organs (skin, tongue).</div><div><br></div><di=
v>It's your choice to use lujvo but my choice is to give definitions to tho=
se lujvo using deep gismu structure only.</div><div>It seems to be impossib=
le. Two words for main senses are absent.</div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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e71mna9RsJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
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?hl=3Den.<br />



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