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Subject: [lojban] Scales vocabulary construction
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 Content preview:  coi In what follows, scales are certain colections of properties
    (in the sense of CLL 15.5). Examples of scales are 1. colour properties,
   e.g. {lo ka blanu} 2. direction relations, e.g. {lo ka gapru} 3. animal/plant
    types, e.g. {lo ka mlatu} 4. family relations, e.g. {lo ka mamta} 5. compass
    directions, e.g. {lo ka berti} 6. genders, e.g. {lo ka fetsi} [...] 
 
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coi

In what follows, scales are certain colections of properties (in the
sense of CLL 15.5).
Examples of scales are

 1. colour properties, e.g. {lo ka blanu}
 2. direction relations, e.g. {lo ka gapru}
 3. animal/plant types, e.g. {lo ka mlatu}
 4. family relations, e.g. {lo ka mamta}
 5. compass directions, e.g. {lo ka berti}
 6. genders, e.g. {lo ka fetsi}

The scale of colours is part of the definition of {skari}, which
requires a colour as its x2.
Similarly, {farna} defines the scale of directions (according to one
interpretation).

brivla for talking about a recognized scale is a relevant vocabulary
demand. Using
existent vocabulary, we can easily and precisely ask what colour an
object is, or about
the direction from one point to another. However, in order to talk
about family relations,
compass directions, or non-binary genders, we need some circumlocutions.

Talk about these abstract scales is greatly simplified when we have a
brivla with a
definition like
  "x1 has property x2 of scale S." or
  "x1 and x2 are related by relation x3 of scale T.", etc.

I ask if there are any general guidelines we could follow in coining
this kind of brivla,
particularly when the only practical description of the scale is a
list of examples.

This is peculiar because it means creating an abstract vocabulary from
a more concrete
base, which implies that no neat lojban definition is to be expected.
We can't rely on
fu'ivla in general because Lojbanistani should be free to come up with
their own unique
scales (like "gender independent family relations").

One idea is to make lujvo like {rodjavbo'e}, where {broda} and {brode}
would be two
prototypical examples of the scale to be defined. You may take it as
coming from the
phrasing
  {ko'a ckaji lo ka broda .a lo ka brode .a lo simsa}
or even from
  {ko'a broda ja brode ja brodi ja brodo ja brodu}
where {{broda}, ..., {brodu}} would be the full (finite) scale.

According to that idea, {xunjavbla} could mean "x1 has colour x2", {sunjavberti}
something like "The compass direction to x1 from x2 is x3" and {tubjavrirni}
"x1 is a relative of x2 by family relation x3".

Since the literal disjunctions would hardly deserve a lujvo, I guess
we could use our
freedom to define a lujvo with a little more than its veljvo components.

(The above examples are illustrative only. The ad-hoc {lazyki'i} is
certainly a better
option for family-relation, for example.)

Alternatively, we could, based on the words for prototypical
properties, make zi'evla
instead of lujvo. I don't know what pattern to follow in that case, though.

What do you think?

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

On 12 July 2012 13:20, Sid <cntrational@gmail.com> wrote:
> I usually think of gender in terms of male to female and stuff in
> between. You could call "raccoon" and "dominant" genders, but I doubt
> that most people see gender in that way. Your word accommodates
> unusual selfviews, and is pretty useful for that, but I think that
> having a separate word for "gender" in terms of male/female/other
> types of views would be handy, since it's a concept widely used.
>
> mi'e cntr
>
> On 12 July 2012 19:07, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Sid <cntrational@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The problem with that is that "gender" is a real life concept -- it
>>> doesn't cease to exist just because you've made a word that covers a
>>> broader topic. I don't think people would have submissiveness or
>>> furriness built in in the same way that gender is built in into
>>> people, so it's a strange idea for things that wouldn't be counted as
>>> "gender" in most conversation to be treated like other genders.
>>>
>> Assuming you meant "have" instead of "would have", I disagree; more
>> precisely, I do not believe that there is strong evidence that the
>> difference between "being dominant" and "being female" is not just a
>> difference in the amount/frequency of reinforcement the current societal
>> context provides.
>>
>>>
>>> Not to say that the word is a bad idea, of course, just that it's not
>>> a good replacement for "gender".
>>
>>
>> Do you have a definition for "gender" which does not involve (explicit or
>> implicit, e.g. by falling back to "sex") enumeration and so does not
>> preclude genders besides "male" and "female" (which exist in some
>> societies), but which rules out things like "submissive" and "raccoon" as
>> identities? I can't, so I defer to you. Besides, if we use such a general
>> word, we could form a tanru/lujvo between {cinse} and it for the more
>> conventional meaning of "gender".
>>>
>>>
>>> mi'e cntr
>>>
>>> On 12 July 2012 17:11, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > What if we discarded the idea of a word for "gender" and coined a term
>>> > for
>>> > something that subsumes the concept. I don't particularly like {ceinse}
>>> > for
>>> > being too much like {cinse}, but that's a small detail.
>>> >
>>> > How about:
>>> > x1 is the internal subjective identity of x2 according to x3
>>> >
>>> > Thus {tu'a lo nanmu mi ceinse} would be "I'm male-gendered" (I'm putting
>>> > a
>>> > tu'a in there because otherwise I feel like I'm saying something more
>>> > like
>>> > {da poi nanmu zo'u da mi ceinse}, which doesn't make sense.) and {tu'a
>>> > lo
>>> > tinbe mi ceinse} could be used for "I'm a submissive" or {tu'a lo
>>> > arxokuna
>>> > mi mi ceinse} for "I self-identify as a raccoon." (e.g. a furry).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 1:12 AM, vitci'i <celestialcognition@gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Let us take as the premise of the discussion that we are creating a new
>>> >> selbri that will express gender. Perhaps it's a new gismu; perhaps
>>> >> we're
>>> >> changing {cinse}. I currently favor making a type-4 fu'ivla {ceinse}.
>>> >> This detail is largely irrelevant, however. Assume it can and may be
>>> >> done: what exactly shall be done?
>>> >>
>>> >> The most important places of a selbri are the x1 and x2, for different
>>> >> reasons. x1 is the most accessible to LE; in my opinion the most useful
>>> >> gender-related noun is the gender question. x1 is a gender.
>>> >>
>>> >> x2 is the most accessible in the face of SE. The ideal selbri should be
>>> >> constructed in such a way that if you want exactly two of its places,
>>> >> almost always one of them is x2. I believe that x2 should be that which
>>> >> is gendered.
>>> >>
>>> >> So far we have: x1 is a/the gender of x2.
>>> >>
>>> >> As I'm sure you're all aware, Gender is Really Complicated. In
>>> >> practice,
>>> >> that probably means that it should be treated as fundamentally
>>> >> subjective. Therefore, x3 should be the one who
>>> >> judges/classifies/assigns a gender. For gender identity, this will be
>>> >> the same as x2 -- the gender is self-assigned.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Gender is multifaceted. x4 is the aspect in which x2 is gendered, or
>>> >> the
>>> >> action by which x3 assigns a gender or expresses a gender judgment. x4
>>> >> answers the question "in what sense"?
>>> >>
>>> >> Sex and gender, while certainly not identical, also cannot be entirely
>>> >> disentangled, and our understanding of the distinction and relationship
>>> >> may evolve over time. There may be more than two members in the set
>>> >> that
>>> >> includes them. Therefore, I believe that we should not enshrine the
>>> >> distinction by giving them separate selbri; rather, sex is a particular
>>> >> x4. When a biologist identifies the sex of an animal, we could say
>>> >> {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre le xadni}, or (context willing) {lo skepre
>>> >> te
>>> >> ceinse lo danlu}.
>>> >>
>>> >> Note that x4 is not an action by which a gender determination is
>>> >> reached; it would be incorrect to say {ceinse lo danlu lo skepre lo nu
>>> >> catlu lo plibu}, unless the scientist is in the habit of looking at the
>>> >> genitals of animals of certain sexes but not of animals of other sexes.
>>> >>
>>> >> There is no default value for x4. An omitted x4 must be construed from
>>> >> context.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> This is intended to cover a broad and complex topic, so there are
>>> >> several possible glosses.
>>> >>
>>> >> x1 is a gender under system/theory x4.
>>> >> x2 has a gender.
>>> >> x2 is gendered/assigned a gender.
>>> >> x3 assigns/construes/treats x2 as gender x1 in respect/by action x4.
>>> >> x1 is x2's gender.
>>> >> x2 performs gender role x1 in respect/by action x4.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Feedback is hereby solicited. In particular, are there things one might
>>> >> want to say about sex or gender that this place structure could not
>>> >> easily express?
>>> >>
>>> >> --
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>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>>
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