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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 02:30:49 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Scales vocabulary construction From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ki'esai xorxes I guess {kaicmi} could then mean "x1 pertains to scale x2."? I wonder if a scale can be described as anything more than an arbitrary collection of properties... E.g. Should a scale be always closed under conjuction? Disjunction? Scalar negation? Should such an algebraic characterization affect our lujvo= ? mu'o mi'e .asiz. On 18 July 2012 20:03, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 6:09 AM, Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis > wrote: >> coi >> >> In what follows, scales are certain colections of properties (in the >> sense of CLL 15.5). >> Examples of scales are >> >> 1. colour properties, e.g. {lo ka blanu} >> 2. direction relations, e.g. {lo ka gapru} >> 3. animal/plant types, e.g. {lo ka mlatu} >> 4. family relations, e.g. {lo ka mamta} >> 5. compass directions, e.g. {lo ka berti} >> 6. genders, e.g. {lo ka fetsi} > > Another one that came up recently is > > 7. position/stance/posture, e.g. "lo ka sanli" >> >> The scale of colours is part of the definition of {skari}, which >> requires a colour as its x2. >> Similarly, {farna} defines the scale of directions (according to one >> interpretation). >> >> brivla for talking about a recognized scale is a relevant vocabulary >> demand. Using >> existent vocabulary, we can easily and precisely ask what colour an >> object is, or about >> the direction from one point to another. However, in order to talk >> about family relations, >> compass directions, or non-binary genders, we need some circumlocutions. >> >> Talk about these abstract scales is greatly simplified when we have a >> brivla with a >> definition like >> "x1 has property x2 of scale S." or >> "x1 and x2 are related by relation x3 of scale T.", etc. >> >> I ask if there are any general guidelines we could follow in coining >> this kind of brivla, > > How about basing them on: > > cmikai: ko'a ckaji ko'e noi cmima ko'i > cmiki'i: ko'a ckini ko'e ko'i noi cmima ko'o > >> particularly when the only practical description of the scale is a >> list of examples. > > Yes, the difficult part is naming the scales, not making brivla that > mean "x1 has property x2 of scale S" or "x1 and x2 are related by > relation x3 of scale T." > >> This is peculiar because it means creating an abstract vocabulary from >> a more concrete >> base, which implies that no neat lojban definition is to be expected. >> We can't rely on >> fu'ivla in general because Lojbanistani should be free to come up with >> their own unique >> scales (like "gender independent family relations"). >> >> One idea is to make lujvo like {rodjavbo'e}, where {broda} and {brode} >> would be two >> prototypical examples of the scale to be defined. You may take it as >> coming from the >> phrasing >> {ko'a ckaji lo ka broda .a lo ka brode .a lo simsa} >> or even from >> {ko'a broda ja brode ja brodi ja brodo ja brodu} >> where {{broda}, ..., {brodu}} would be the full (finite) scale. >> >> According to that idea, {xunjavbla} could mean "x1 has colour x2", {sunj= avberti} >> something like "The compass direction to x1 from x2 is x3" and {tubjavri= rni} >> "x1 is a relative of x2 by family relation x3". >> >> Since the literal disjunctions would hardly deserve a lujvo, I guess >> we could use our >> freedom to define a lujvo with a little more than its veljvo components. > > Ot how about: > > xuncmikai: ko'a ckaji ko'e noi cmima lo se cmima be lo ka xunre > > ti xuncmikai lo ka pelxu > > To make the scale more clear you may include more than one value: > > do nakfetcmikai ma > What gender are you? > > do zutsa'icmikai ma > In what position are you? > > >> (The above examples are illustrative only. The ad-hoc {lazyki'i} is >> certainly a better >> option for family-relation, for example.) > > And we already have "skari" for "xuncmikai". > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.