Received: from mail-gg0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:39567) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1StZFr-0005sj-Ry; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:10:09 -0700 Received: by ggke5 with SMTP id e5sf8636644ggk.16 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:09:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=CdbWuB0ehzfRQRSsQgCEoOri3MpUaSeYRdD7DOVJ/rI=; b=mnq+5IsAyk9l2ijE/dQvgDfwzVQWhnvPMxRgYGpI5F59MTkJ86UGAXKK04lBuoe9r4 NQucsWBQk1iPMXWN5jVphlLicYJeM1NcXPV3SPfLbcPnId45ehr1aV8su8pz2a9kV4jH KPwdE70q4rX+bKZ1mBTBmTOdUUP7sWaffhlJ0= Received: by 10.52.66.44 with SMTP id c12mr1808261vdt.19.1343113796950; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:09:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.100.135 with SMTP id ey7ls4147615vdb.6.gmail; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.23.65 with SMTP id k1mr1794783vdf.7.1343113796338; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:09:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <2abfa90c-6902-4f2c-9ebb-3afa9f7c87b8@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Loglandic N-paradigm. Is it worthy of examination? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_213_13524116.1343113795835" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_213_13524116.1343113795835 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, it's like BAI and FA. You can use free order of arguments like in FA but there is no need to memorise the order of sumti. So actually it's like using BAI but you can't use such case tag if it's not in gismu definition. So imagine that dunda = x1 gives x2 to x3 but instead of ko'a dunda ko'e ko'i you don't memorise the order but say something like {to'o ko'a dunda ri'i ko'e fa'a ko'i} and there is no need in memorisng the order of arguments. Your intuition tells you that ko'e (x2 of dunda) is like direct object in European languages therefore you use {ri'i}, you give the gift TOWARDS someone so it's {fa'a}. BUT IN N-PARADIGM YOU CAN'T USE ANY OTHER *BAI* except those three. Therefore they are worse than BAI (that can be used with any gismu) but better than FA (where you must remember the order). So it's an attempt to introduce cases present in many world languages like German or even English (consider "they->"them" resulting in accusative case). This might make language more naturalistic but I wonder whether those cases are universal and intuitive (whether they can eliminate the need in memorising the order of places).. On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:21:54 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> After the two languages split Loglan introduced optional case tags. >> It states that each sumti place can be assigned to a separate class, and >> no two sumti in any brivla can have sumti places that belong to the same >> class. >> It probably aims at being easy to use, that is you should probably have >> no problems in choosing what case tag (i.e. preposition) to use for >> refering to any sumti. >> >> http://loglan.org/Paradigms/paradigm_n.html >> >> Some of them like /jui/ for instance just reminds me of lojbanic {mau} >> (the problem with "than" in gismu definitions that was probably solved in >> Lojban). >> In my opinion /dio/ leads to some language-specific metaphors >> (beneficiary being kinda destination). >> > > I'm sorry, is this something like the BAI? Otherwise I don't get it. > > >> But on the other hand, don't recent (and actually eternal) suggestions to >> remove some frequent sumti places suggest something similar? >> > > I know of no suggestions to remove frequent sumti places. Perhaps you > meant INfrequent, as in the places that are rarely if ever used, and > usually have a BAI equivalent s well? > Yes I meant not removing but rather ignoring them and using BAI instead (like with "by standard...") > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/cr_87WrrNNAJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_213_13524116.1343113795835 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, it's like BAI and FA.
You can use free order of arguments like in= FA but there is no need to memorise the order of sumti.
So actua= lly it's like using BAI but you can't use such case tag if it's not in gism= u definition.

So imagine that
dunda =3D = x1 gives x2 to x3
but instead of ko'a dunda ko'e ko'i you don't m= emorise the order
but say something like

{to'o ko'a dunda ri'i ko'e fa'a ko'i}
and there is no need in me= morisng the order of arguments.
Your intuition tells you that ko'= e (x2 of dunda) is like direct object in European languages therefore you u= se {ri'i}, you give the gift TOWARDS someone so it's {fa'a}.

=
BUT IN N-PARADIGM YOU CAN'T USE ANY OTHER BAI except= those three.

Therefore they are worse than BAI (t= hat can be used with any gismu) but better than FA (where you must remember= the order).

So it's an attempt to introduce cases= present in many world languages like German or even English (consider "the= y->"them" resulting in accusative case). This might make language more n= aturalistic but I wonder whether those cases are universal and intuitive (w= hether they can eliminate the need in memorising the order of places)..

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:21:54 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Mon, Ju= l 23, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co= m> wrote:
After the two languages split Loglan introduced optional case tags.
It = states that each sumti place can be assigned to a separate class, and no tw= o sumti in any brivla can have sumti places that belong to the same class.<= /div>
It probably aims at being easy to use, that is you should probably hav= e no problems in choosing what case tag (i.e. preposition) to use for refer= ing to any sumti.


Some of them like /jui/ for instance just reminds= me of lojbanic {mau} (the problem with "than" in gismu definitio= ns that was probably solved in Lojban).
In my opinion /dio/ leads= to some language-specific metaphors (beneficiary being kinda destination).=

I'm sorry, is this something like the BAI? Otherwise = I don't get it.
 
But on the other hand, don't recent (and actually eternal) suggestions= to remove some frequent sumti places suggest something similar?

I know of no suggestions to remove frequent sumti places. Perhaps you meant= INfrequent, as in the places that are rarely if ever used, and usually hav= e a BAI equivalent s well?
Yes I meant not remov= ing but rather ignoring them and using BAI instead (like with "by standard.= ..")

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Co= me to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/cr= _87WrrNNAJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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