On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:09 AM, Gleki Arxokuna = <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, it's like BAI and FA.

You can use free order of arguments lik= e in FA but there is no need to memorise the order of sumti.

So a= ctually it's like using BAI but you can't use such case tag if it&#= 39;s not in gismu definition.

So imagine that

dunda =3D x1 gives x2 to x3

but instead of ko'a dunda ko'e ko'i you don't memo= rise the order

but say something like

{to'o ko'a dunda ri'i ko'e fa'a ko'i}

and= there is no need in memorisng the order of arguments.

Your intui= tion tells you that ko'e (x2 of dunda) is like direct object in Europea= n languages therefore you use {ri'i}, you give the gift TOWARDS someone= so it's {fa'a}.

BUT IN N-PARADIGM YOU CAN'T USE ANY OTHER BAI=A0except those three.

Therefore they are worse t= han BAI (that can be used with any gismu) but better than FA (where you mus= t remember the order).

So it's an attempt to introduce cases present in ma= ny world languages like German or even English (consider "they->&qu= ot;them" resulting in accusative case). This might make language more = naturalistic but I wonder whether those cases are universal and intuitive (= whether they can eliminate the need in memorising the order of places)..

I don't see how it's of much benefit. While i= t arguably removes the need to remember the order of places, with such a re= striction, it still requires knowing the places, and additionally, it requi= res knowing the /words/ for the places, which would be different for every = brivla. The list of words on the linked page is also far from exhaustive an= d each word is itself extremely general. These considerations say to me tha= t our BAI are much more extensive in their utility and scope, for what I be= lieve to be obvious reasons. In short, I would that our solution, with FA a= nd BAI, is a better one than the N-paradigm, but that is of course merely m= y opinion.

As to whether it's is "universal" or "intuitive"= ;, I have no idea and will leave that to the linguists in our group to pond= er, but I'm leaning rather heavily to "no" on both counts. =A0
On Tuesday, = July 24, 2012 9:21:54 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:34 PM, Gleki Arxokuna= <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
After the two languages split Loglan introduced optional case tags.
It = states that each sumti place can be assigned to a separate class, and no tw= o sumti in any brivla can have sumti places that belong to the same class.<= /div>
It probably aims at being easy to use, that is you should probably hav= e no problems in choosing what case tag (i.e. preposition) to use for refer= ing to any sumti.

http://loglan.org/Paradigms/paradigm_n.html=A0

Some of them like /jui/ for instance just reminds= me of lojbanic {mau} (the problem=A0with "than"=A0in gismu defin= itions that was probably solved in Lojban).
In my opinion /dio/ l= eads to some language-specific metaphors (beneficiary being kinda destinati= on).

I'm sorry, is this something like the BAI? Otherw= ise I don't get it.
=A0

But on the other hand, don't recent (and actually eternal) suggest= ions to remove some frequent sumti places suggest something similar?
<= span>

I know of no suggestions to remove frequent sumti places. Perhaps you meant= INfrequent, as in the places that are rarely if ever used, and usually hav= e a BAI equivalent s well?
Yes I meant not= removing but rather ignoring them and using BAI instead (like with "b= y standard...")

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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