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On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:16 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>  Am 24.07.2012 17:44, schrieb Michael Turniansky:
>>
>> ".i ny za'u re'u pensi lo nu ta'i ma kau catra kei mu'i lo nu co'u lo nu
>> ca'a mlerai be ro lo selgu'e cu na surla kakne ri'a lo nu jilra"
>>
>>  (first, I should note that on a grammatical note, genrei doesn't like
>> it without a "boi" or "cu" between "ny" and "re'u" since they otherwise
>> form into a single lerfu string.  jboski (online jbofi'e), OTOH, has no
>> problem with it.  I"m not sure what the "correct" interpretation is
>> according to the formal grammar)
>>
>>
>> It's missing a cu. As I originally said, I did not proof-read the
>> translation, so typos like this one are expected to show up here and there.
>>
>>
>    Yeah, I would tend to agree with that.  I just think it interesting
> that jboski had no problem parsing it (and let's be honest, most humans
> wouldn't have trouble parsing it, either, tending to think of "z'aure'u" as
> a single conceptual unit, and since, even if one does take "ny.ra'u" as
> single unit, the sentence doesn't parse, even a backtracking type of method
> must realize that that can't be right)
>
>>   pensi-2's are normally considered to be ideas, not events, so it
>> should be si'o, not nu, for those who are pedantic about such stuff.
>>
>>
>> You can think about anything. You can think about objects, events,
>> whatever you want. Anything you can hold in your mind can be a pensi2.
>>
>>
>    Again, the pedants (and I don't necessarily say that I'm one) would say
> that you CAN'T hold a ball in your mind.  You can hold a ball in your hand.
>  You can only hold the IDEA of a ball in your mind, hence "si'o bolci".  As
> for me, I've always felt lojban was too strongly "typed" anyhow.
>
>   But more importantly, I'm again having trouble getting the proper sense
>> of the sentence.  I think you are trying to say that she is once again
>> thinking about how to kill (Snow White) because she is not able to relax
>> because  she is no longer the most beautiful in the land, due to her
>> jealousy.  Which I guess works, but it's real hard for me to puzzle out the
>> convolutions of the sentence due to the nested modals and tenses
>>
>>
>> It's quite straighforward for me. But I can walk you through it:
>>
>> .i ny cu za'u re'u pensi lo nu ta'i ma kau catra kei
>> The queen (ny) again thought about how to kill (her)
>>
>> mu'i lo nu co'u lo nu ca'a mlerai lo ro selgu'e
>> because, until she was actually the pretties of all the people in the
>> country,
>>
>> cu na surla kakne
>> (she) would not be able to relax
>>
>>
>> ri'a lo nu jilra
>> because of her envy
>>
>>
>> I could add some more pro-sumti, but they are obvious enough to me to be
>> elided. I don't like how the na scopes over the ri'a in this sentence, so
>> I'll fix that in the actual text.
>>
>>
>   So you interpret "co'u X" as meaning "until X"?  Interesting.  So,
> that's in line with the proposal on
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Aspect+as+of+24+May+2004 To
> me, I still use the CLL version, which is part of my confusion.  But in any
> case, I didn't say I couldn't puzzle it out, just that it was difficult.
>  And yeah, I know you like to elide prosumti x1s in your main bridi, but
> that's the style of your story, so I didn't suggest changing it.
>
>    --gejyspa
>

I thought "pu'o X" was "until X"...?

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--f46d042c6477d9e35d04c596d2d2
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Michael Turnia=
nsky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im">On Tue, Jul 2=
4, 2012 at 12:16 PM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:se=
ladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <tt>Am <a href=3D"tel:24.07.2012%2017" value=3D"+12407201217" target=3D=
"_blank">24.07.2012 17</a>:44, schrieb Michael Turniansky:<br>
    </tt><div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><tt>&quot;<span style=3D"line-height:18px;text-align=
:left;font-size:12px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,sans-serif">.i
            ny za&#39;u re&#39;u pensi lo nu ta&#39;i ma kau catra kei mu&#=
39;i lo nu
            co&#39;u lo nu ca&#39;a mlerai be ro lo selgu&#39;e cu na surla=
 kakne
            ri&#39;a lo nu jilra&quot;</span></tt>
        <div>
          <tt><span style=3D"line-height:18px;text-align:left;font-size:12p=
x;font-family:Verdana,Arial,sans-serif"><br>
            </span></tt></div>
        <div><tt><span style=3D"line-height:18px;text-align:left;font-size:=
12px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,sans-serif">(first,
              I should note that on a grammatical note, genrei doesn&#39;t
              like it without a &quot;boi&quot; or &quot;cu&quot; between &=
quot;ny&quot; and &quot;re&#39;u&quot;
              since they otherwise form into a single lerfu string.
              =A0jboski (online jbofi&#39;e), OTOH, has no problem with it.
              =A0I&quot;m not sure what the &quot;correct&quot; interpretat=
ion is
              according to the formal grammar)</span></tt></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div><tt><br>
      It&#39;s missing a cu. As I originally said, I did not proof-read the
      translation, so typos like this one are expected to show up here
      and there.<br>
      <br></tt></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>=A0 =A0Yeah, I =
would tend to agree with that. =A0I=A0just=A0think it interesting that jbos=
ki had no problem parsing it (and let&#39;s be honest, most humans wouldn&#=
39;t have=A0trouble=A0parsing it, either, tending to think of &quot;z&#39;a=
ure&#39;u&quot; as a single conceptual unit, and since, even if one does ta=
ke &quot;ny.ra&#39;u&quot; as single unit, the sentence doesn&#39;t parse, =
even a backtracking type of method must realize that that can&#39;t be righ=
t)</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><t=
t>
    </tt><div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div><tt><span style=3D"line-height:18px;text-align:left;font-size:=
12px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,sans-serif">pensi-2&#39;s
              are normally considered to be ideas, not events, so it
              should be si&#39;o, not nu, for those who are pedantic about
              such stuff.=A0 <br>
            </span></tt></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div><tt><br>
      You can think about anything. You can think about objects, events,
      whatever you want. Anything you can hold in your mind can be a
      pensi2.<br>
      <br></tt></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>=A0 =A0Again, t=
he=A0pedants=A0(and I don&#39;t necessarily say that I&#39;m one) would say=
 that you CAN&#39;T hold a ball in your mind. =A0You can hold a ball in you=
r hand. =A0You can only hold the IDEA of a ball in your mind, hence &quot;s=
i&#39;o bolci&quot;. =A0As for me, I&#39;ve always felt lojban was too stro=
ngly &quot;typed&quot; anyhow.=A0</div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=
=3D"#000000"><tt>
    </tt><div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div><tt><span style=3D"line-height:18px;text-align:left;font-size:=
12px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,sans-serif">But
              more importantly, I&#39;m again having trouble getting the
              proper sense of the sentence. =A0I think you are trying to
              say that she is once again thinking about how to kill
              (Snow White) because she is not able to relax because =A0she
              is no longer the most beautiful in the land, due to her
              jealousy. =A0Which I guess works, but it&#39;s real hard for =
me
              to puzzle out the convolutions of the sentence due to the
              nested modals and tenses</span></tt></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div><tt><br>
      It&#39;s quite straighforward for me. But I can walk you through it:<=
br>
      <br>
      .i ny cu za&#39;u re&#39;u pensi lo nu ta&#39;i ma kau catra kei<br>
      The queen (ny) again thought about how to kill (her)<br>
      <br>
      mu&#39;i lo nu co&#39;u lo nu ca&#39;a mlerai lo ro selgu&#39;e <br>
      because, until she was actually the pretties of all the people in
      the country,<br>
      <br>
      cu na surla kakne <br>
      (she) would not be able to relax<div><br>
      <br>
      ri&#39;a lo nu jilra<br></div>
      because of her envy<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      I could add some more pro-sumti, but they are obvious enough to me
      to be elided. I don&#39;t like how the na scopes over the ri&#39;a in=
 this
      sentence, so I&#39;ll fix that in the actual text.<div><br></div></tt=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>=A0 So you interpret &quot;co=
&#39;u X&quot; as meaning &quot;until X&quot;? =A0Interesting. =A0So, that&=
#39;s in line with the proposal on <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BP=
FK+Section%3A+Aspect+as+of+24+May+2004" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban=
.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Aspect+as+of+24+May+2004</a> To me, I still use t=
he CLL version, which is part of my confusion. =A0But in any case, I didn&#=
39;t say I couldn&#39;t puzzle it out,=A0just=A0that it was difficult. =A0A=
nd yeah, I know you like to elide prosumti x1s in your main bridi, but that=
&#39;s the style of your story, so I didn&#39;t suggest changing it.</div>

<div><br></div><div>=A0 =A0--gejyspa</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
>I thought &quot;pu&#39;o X&quot; was &quot;until X&quot;...? <br></div></d=
iv><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo p=
ilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

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