Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:61350) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Stjdc-0004wh-A9; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:15:29 -0700 Received: by qcac11 with SMTP id c11sf9411238qca.16 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:15:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=HiDCISl09jA8/LGPpkQhgQRnxYk13Li0ptmnIDAGdyY=; b=YU/BoNC7Ta8hg5vWH/dPe3VM3j4PMk9FbY9bcsLClb6lIDtXNma+nvoLtDVVQ9acVL qYW4KOmxRiLn2eyDy+nGCBHxkPPxc/Kbvy1EfEj0FgGZyXFgqy8GsoC2y/LGMjqJIHLD Wt2x7frTlhx6H+FBWCWFsG5l5lAsAa9Ays7kw= Received: by 10.52.26.18 with SMTP id h18mr2205377vdg.0.1343153709156; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:15:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.239.208 with SMTP id kx16ls5356245vcb.8.gmail; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.88.174 with SMTP id bh14mr31940376vdb.6.1343153708484; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.88.174 with SMTP id bh14mr31940375vdb.6.1343153708472; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dy2si2053793vdb.1.2012.07.24.11.15.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.169; Received: by vcbfl10 with SMTP id fl10so7225447vcb.0 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.152.67 with SMTP id f3mr5857785vcw.19.1343153708247; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:15:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.24.193 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jul 2012 11:14:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4FF34B59.6060005@gmx.de>

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From: Jacob Errington Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:14:48 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la snime blabi To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / On 24 July 2012 13:40, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Michael Turniansky >> wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:16 PM, selpa'i wrote: >>>> >>>> Am 24.07.2012 17:44, schrieb Michael Turniansky: >>>> >>>> ".i ny za'u re'u pensi lo nu ta'i ma kau catra kei mu'i lo nu co'u lo nu >>>> ca'a mlerai be ro lo selgu'e cu na surla kakne ri'a lo nu jilra" >>>> >>>> (first, I should note that on a grammatical note, genrei doesn't like it >>>> without a "boi" or "cu" between "ny" and "re'u" since they otherwise form >>>> into a single lerfu string. jboski (online jbofi'e), OTOH, has no problem >>>> with it. I"m not sure what the "correct" interpretation is according to the >>>> formal grammar) >>>> >>>> >>>> It's missing a cu. As I originally said, I did not proof-read the >>>> translation, so typos like this one are expected to show up here and there. >>>> >>> >>> Yeah, I would tend to agree with that. I just think it interesting >>> that jboski had no problem parsing it (and let's be honest, most humans >>> wouldn't have trouble parsing it, either, tending to think of "z'aure'u" as >>> a single conceptual unit, and since, even if one does take "ny.ra'u" as >>> single unit, the sentence doesn't parse, even a backtracking type of method >>> must realize that that can't be right) >>>> >>>> pensi-2's are normally considered to be ideas, not events, so it should >>>> be si'o, not nu, for those who are pedantic about such stuff. >>>> >>>> >>>> You can think about anything. You can think about objects, events, >>>> whatever you want. Anything you can hold in your mind can be a pensi2. >>>> >>> >>> Again, the pedants (and I don't necessarily say that I'm one) would >>> say that you CAN'T hold a ball in your mind. You can hold a ball in your >>> hand. You can only hold the IDEA of a ball in your mind, hence "si'o >>> bolci". As for me, I've always felt lojban was too strongly "typed" anyhow. >>> >>>> But more importantly, I'm again having trouble getting the proper sense >>>> of the sentence. I think you are trying to say that she is once again >>>> thinking about how to kill (Snow White) because she is not able to relax >>>> because she is no longer the most beautiful in the land, due to her >>>> jealousy. Which I guess works, but it's real hard for me to puzzle out the >>>> convolutions of the sentence due to the nested modals and tenses >>>> >>>> >>>> It's quite straighforward for me. But I can walk you through it: >>>> >>>> .i ny cu za'u re'u pensi lo nu ta'i ma kau catra kei >>>> The queen (ny) again thought about how to kill (her) >>>> >>>> mu'i lo nu co'u lo nu ca'a mlerai lo ro selgu'e >>>> because, until she was actually the pretties of all the people in the >>>> country, >>>> >>>> cu na surla kakne >>>> (she) would not be able to relax >>>> >>>> >>>> ri'a lo nu jilra >>>> because of her envy >>>> >>>> >>>> I could add some more pro-sumti, but they are obvious enough to me to be >>>> elided. I don't like how the na scopes over the ri'a in this sentence, so >>>> I'll fix that in the actual text. >>>> >>> >>> So you interpret "co'u X" as meaning "until X"? Interesting. So, >>> that's in line with the proposal on >>> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Aspect+as+of+24+May+2004 To me, I >>> still use the CLL version, which is part of my confusion. But in any case, >>> I didn't say I couldn't puzzle it out, just that it was difficult. And >>> yeah, I know you like to elide prosumti x1s in your main bridi, but that's >>> the style of your story, so I didn't suggest changing it. >>> >>> --gejyspa >> >> >> I thought "pu'o X" was "until X"...? >> >> > The CLL has ZAhO as sumtcita defined in a way that doesn't really match up with with other sumtcita. IIRC, CCL says that {brode ZAhO lo nu broda} == {brode ca lo nu ZAhO broda} which is the only case of the tag infiltrating the abstraction. That wiki page, which I believe reflects xorxes's proposal for ZAhO, says that {brode ZAhO ko'a} == {ZAhO brode ca ko'a}. Incidentally, that interpretation works for TAhE too: {broda TAhE ko'a} == {TAhE broda ca ko'a}. Xorxes uses ZAhO in this way in le cmalu noltru. mu'o mi'e la tsani > Yes, that's how the CLL has it, and the way I prefer it, but read the > discussion link I posted above, or > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=ZAhO+as+sumti+tcita for why > some don't like it that way. > --gejyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.