Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:58:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bruno Durin <bruno.durin@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: [lojban] Lojban wall of complexity (beginner thoughts)
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Coi rodo

I am a beginner and I am trying to summarize some thoughts and ideas about 
my experience of my first steps in Lojban. So please bear in mind that part 
of, or maybe all, of what I am saying may be moot because it's only the 
reflect of my low level in Lojban. Please note also that English is not my 
mother tongue (I'm French). I also send this message on this mailing list 
because to my mind it falls in a broader scope that just beginner questions.

On the one hand it's quite easy to find on the web info about Lojban 
(especially the wikipedia page, then the lojban.org site) and tools to 
learn (tutorial, google wave lessons, grammar reference book, third-party 
web site such as memrise.com). After some work, it's easy to grasp how to 
use the language to express simple thoughts or to run a simple conversation 
about dailylife topics (even if I am still far from being able to do so). 
On the other hand, I had hard times to find more info on some detailed 
/subtle points of the grammar, to understand whether the material I was 
finding (especially in lojban.org) was up to date or deprecated, to 
identify the major contributors to the language, in short if I could trust 
the source and learn from it or not.
In order to understand my point, let me explain why I am interested in 
Lojban. I am not interested by Lojban as a language to speak with other 
people. The only part that I find really interesting and even fascinating 
is the non ambiguity and the consequences of it in terms of possible 
"computation" by a computer. Best example which I have found so far is the 
parser (for example, I played with camxes), which is able to state whether 
the text is grammatical and to output the parsing tree. The next step I'd 
like to make is to use my little knowledge of the language to start writing 
some non ambiguous text about technical subjects (the idea is that 
information extraction by a computer program in a text written in Lojban 
would be far easier than in other natural languages). The only example I 
could find is the translation of the first page of an algebra textbook 
whose name I have forgotten.

So let's imagine I would like to translate the following small text on 
classes to describe what is object programming (this is a very bad 
description, but anyway)
"Classes are composed of members and methods. Two classes can be linked by 
an inheritance relationship. A class has a constructor, whose role is to 
initialize an instance of the class and a destructor, whose role is clean 
the instance before memory desallocation."
So how do I decide which part of Lojban to use? Cmavo like "I define", "I 
state", etc.? Or should I look for gismo that express the relationship 
(something like: "members" pagbu "class" .i "methods" pagbu "class")? Or 
use set constructs with "du" or "mintu" and mex to express the fact that 
class = set {members, methods} which could also be a valid way to define 
class at the level of details of my silly example? To which extend should I 
translate computer science words? Use standard morphology as for 
"spaghetti" translation to Lojban? Use "klesi" for class or "le'a" to 
express category? etc. At this stage it seems to me that it's not only a 
question of my better learning Lojban, it's also a question of building new 
vocabulary, of knowing how to choose a construct rather than another 
(finding the right style in Lojban to write about a given field --here it's 
computer science--, as there is a specific style to follow when writing 
mathematics (theorems for example) in English), of understanding thoroughly 
Lojban design not to spoil it (for example by using systematically mex 
constructs to write formal definitions that have nothing to do with 
mathematics, as I could do with "class = set {members, methods}"). To what 
extend do you have to be a linguist and/or a major contributor of Lojban 
(who I am not, not even a computer scientist) to achieve this goal? Do I 
have to wait for Lojban texts on computer science (or juridic texts, which 
is another area where I find Lojban very interesting) to be written before 
writing some myself or am I able to contribute?

Following these lines, here are some bullet points giving a more structured 
view of what I think would help me (I would be happy to help on all what is 
in my reach):
- lojban.org is confusing : main entry point to the internet is often a 
google search which brings you to pages that are not reachable from links 
in the left menu. Hard to understand what is up-to-date (I took me several 
weeks to find the last version of the grammar reference book, the 
grammar.300 page, the most up-to-date project page, etc.). Is discussion 
about article "lo" mentioned on one page integrated in reference grammar ? 
What is the final status on this question ?
- mailing list (only with respect to the fact that lojban.org is confusing) 
: seems to be the reference, but hard to extract the information (when 
looking for some more information on functions and mex, you may stumble 
upon a long exchange on subtle points on function gismu in Lojban, but I 
couldn't find simple examples which could complement the reference grammar).
- some texts on the "spirit" of Lojban (as there is be a "zen" of python 
programming language and various reference document by the founder and some 
major contributor to explain you how python is going to evolve, in which 
direction, what you could expect from the language, in which direction you 
are urged to think of improvements, theses are gathered in structured PEP 
(python enhancement proposal). In Lojban, there could be Lojban development 
guidelines : guidelines to build botanic words, guidelines to write juridic 
text, computer science text, guidelines for philosophy, etc. In a nutshell 
expert advice for normal people to contribute without wondering whether the 
fact they do not understand why a language without a metalinguistic 
negation is bad hinders them from developing the language or not.
- Lojban reference grammar written in Lojban, as there is for example a 
reference grammar for French written in French. This could be a good way to 
understand how Lojban deals with some somewhat circular reference we can 
see in dictionary or grammar book of a language written in this same 
language
- Lojban small texts on technical subjects where the need of non-ambiguity 
is naturally stronger than in a novel of a short story.

Thank you for reading all this and once again I'd be happy to work on one 
of this point!
Bruno Durin

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Coi rodo<div><br></div><div>I am a beginner and I am trying to summarize so=
me thoughts and ideas about my experience of my first steps in Lojban. So p=
lease bear in mind that part of, or maybe all, of what I am saying may be m=
oot because it's only the reflect of my low level in Lojban. Please note al=
so that English is not my mother tongue (I'm French). I also send this mess=
age on this mailing list because to my mind it falls in a broader scope tha=
t just beginner questions.</div><div><br></div><div>On the one hand it's qu=
ite easy to find on the web info about Lojban (especially the wikipedia pag=
e, then the lojban.org site) and tools to learn (tutorial, google wave less=
ons, grammar reference book, third-party web site such as memrise.com). Aft=
er some work, it's easy to grasp how to use the language to express simple =
thoughts or to run a simple conversation about dailylife topics (even if I =
am still far from being able to do so). On the other hand, I had hard times=
 to find more info on some detailed /subtle points of the grammar, to under=
stand whether the material I was finding (especially in lojban.org) was up =
to date or deprecated, to identify the major contributors to the language, =
in short if I could trust the source and learn from it or not.</div><div>In=
 order to understand my point, let me explain why I am interested in Lojban=
. I am not interested by Lojban as a language to speak with other people. T=
he only part that I find really interesting and even fascinating is the non=
 ambiguity and the consequences of it in terms of possible "computation" by=
 a computer. Best example which I have found so far is the parser (for exam=
ple, I played with camxes), which is able to state whether the text is gram=
matical and to output the parsing tree. The next step I'd like to make is t=
o use my little knowledge of the language to start writing some non ambiguo=
us text about technical subjects (the idea is that information extraction b=
y a computer program in a text written in Lojban would be far easier than i=
n other natural languages). The only example I could find is the translatio=
n of the first page of an algebra textbook whose name I have forgotten.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>So let's imagine I would like to translate the follow=
ing small text on classes to describe what is object programming (this is a=
 very bad description, but anyway)</div><div>"Classes are composed of membe=
rs and methods. Two classes can be linked by an inheritance relationship. A=
 class has a constructor, whose role is to initialize an instance of the cl=
ass and a destructor, whose role is clean the instance before memory desall=
ocation."</div><div>So how do I decide which part of Lojban to use? Cmavo l=
ike "I define", "I state", etc.? Or should I look for gismo that express th=
e relationship (something like: "members" pagbu "class" .i "methods" pagbu =
"class")? Or use set constructs with "du" or "mintu" and mex to express the=
 fact that class =3D set {members, methods} which could also be a valid way=
 to define class at the level of details of my silly example? To which exte=
nd should I translate computer science words? Use standard morphology as fo=
r "spaghetti" translation to Lojban? Use "klesi" for class or "le'a" to exp=
ress category? etc. At this stage it seems to me that it's not only a quest=
ion of my better learning Lojban, it's also a question of building new voca=
bulary, of knowing how to choose a construct rather than another (finding t=
he right style in Lojban to write about a given field --here it's computer =
science--, as there is a specific style to follow when writing mathematics =
(theorems for example) in English), of understanding thoroughly Lojban desi=
gn not to spoil it (for example by using systematically mex constructs to w=
rite formal definitions that have nothing to do with mathematics, as I coul=
d do with "class =3D set {members, methods}"). To what extend do you have t=
o be a linguist and/or a major contributor of Lojban (who I am not, not eve=
n a computer scientist) to achieve this goal? Do I have to wait for Lojban =
texts on computer science (or juridic texts, which is another area where I =
find Lojban very interesting) to be written before writing some myself or a=
m I able to contribute?</div><div><br></div><div>Following these lines, her=
e are some bullet points giving a more structured view of what I think woul=
d help me (I would be happy to help on all what is in my reach):</div><div>=
- lojban.org is confusing : main entry point to the internet is often a goo=
gle search which brings you to pages that are not reachable from links in t=
he left menu. Hard to understand what is up-to-date (I took me several week=
s to find the last version of the grammar reference book, the grammar.300 p=
age, the most up-to-date project page, etc.). Is discussion about article "=
lo" mentioned on one page integrated in reference grammar ? What is the fin=
al status on this question ?</div><div>- mailing list (only with respect to=
 the fact that lojban.org is confusing) : seems to be the reference, but ha=
rd to extract the information (when looking for some more information on fu=
nctions and mex, you may stumble upon a long exchange on subtle points on f=
unction gismu in Lojban, but I couldn't find simple examples which could co=
mplement the reference grammar).</div><div>- some texts on the "spirit" of =
Lojban (as there is be a "zen" of python programming language and various r=
eference document by the founder and some major contributor to explain you =
how python is going to evolve, in which direction, what you could expect fr=
om the language, in which direction you are urged to think of improvements,=
 theses are gathered in structured PEP (python enhancement proposal). In Lo=
jban, there could be Lojban development guidelines : guidelines to build bo=
tanic words, guidelines to write juridic text, computer science text, guide=
lines for philosophy, etc. In a nutshell expert advice for normal people to=
 contribute without wondering whether the fact they do not understand why a=
 language without a metalinguistic negation is bad hinders them from develo=
ping the language or not.</div><div>- Lojban reference grammar written in L=
ojban, as there is for example a reference grammar for French written in Fr=
ench. This could be a good way to understand how Lojban deals with some som=
ewhat circular reference we can see in dictionary or grammar book of a lang=
uage written in this same language</div><div>- Lojban small texts on techni=
cal subjects where the need of non-ambiguity is naturally stronger than in =
a novel of a short story.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for reading al=
l this and once again I'd be happy to work on one of this point!</div><div>=
Bruno Durin</div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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lojban" group.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msg/lojban/-/8WUviGHVgZAJ">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/8W=
UviGHVgZAJ</a>.<br />=20
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />


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