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Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 21:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: It's Greek to me
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On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:21:37 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
>
>  Am 25.07.2012 18:39, schrieb Marica Odagaki:
>  
> xu ki'a lu .itkuile li'u xelso 
>
>  jboski and vlasisku doesn't parse ".itkuile"
> and neither do I, to whom Lojban is still Greek.
>
>
> vlasisku is not a parser. It can only decompose lujvo, but this is a 
> zi'evla based on Ithkuil (the language).
>
>  Am 25.07.2012 19:07, schrieb Gleki Arxokuna:
>  
> How shall we define it?
> Wiktionary says 
> *Greek* (uncountable) Unintelligible speech or text, such as foreign 
> speech or text, or regarding subjects the listener is not familiar with, 
> such as mathematics or technical jargon; or statements that the listener 
> does not understand or agree with.
>
>  .e'u
> {.itkuile -  x1 (quoted text/object) is unintelligible [for x2]}
> Now I wonder if there is any need in this word when {jimpe} does the same.
> The definition needs to be more specific.
>  
>
> That is possible, but quite terrible. You seem to be overlooking the joke 
> (or I am seeing a joke where there is none). 
> .itkuile: x1 pertains to Ithkuil in aspect x2
>
> It's funny when used as "this is so complicated, I can't understand it", 
> but defining it that way removes some of the metaphorical character from 
> the expression.
>
I understood the joke. pe'i metaphorical expressions are possible in Lojban 
but must be clearly defined
to prevent culture-specific misunderstanding.
In the Netherlands and Russia they say "It's Chinese to me" in such 
situations.

And is there any connotation of the Greeks, Greek alphabet or Greek culture 
when you say "It's Greek to me"?
I guess no.
Therefore I don't understand how we can define it as x1 pertains to Ithkuil 
in aspect x2
but use it for a different thing.

"greek" and Greek are just two words for me.
As the last option I'd prefer
do'i me la .itkuil. pe'a ga'a mi

But I like your solution with "Greek in the second sense" for Lojban.
Just build the full meaning of the metaphor into it's definition and we are 
done.
 

> Of course, you'd get some laughs when someone looks it up expecting it to 
> mean "x1 pertains to Ithkuil [..]" only to find this joke-definition. 
> Happens somewhat regularly with the many other joke-brivla when someone 
> looks them up on IRC.
>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>
>  -- 
> .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u 
> .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla 
> .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata
>
>  

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On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:21:37 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:<blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <tt>Am 25.07.2012 18:39, schrieb Marica Odagaki:<br>
    </tt>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"><tt>xu ki'a lu .itkuile li'u xelso</tt>
      <div><tt><br>
        </tt></div>
      <div><tt>jboski and vlasisku doesn't parse ".itkuile"</tt></div>
      <div><tt>and neither do I,&nbsp;to whom Lojban is still Greek.</tt></=
div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
      vlasisku is not a parser. It can only decompose lujvo, but this is
      a zi'evla based on Ithkuil (the language).<br>
      <br>
    </tt>
    <div><tt>Am 25.07.2012 19:07, schrieb Gleki
        Arxokuna:<br>
      </tt>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"><tt>How shall we define it?<br>
        Wiktionary says </tt>
      <div>
        <div><tt><b>Greek</b> (uncountable) Unintelligible speech or
            text, such as foreign speech or text, or regarding subjects
            the listener is not familiar with, such as mathematics or
            technical jargon; or statements that the listener does not
            understand or agree with.</tt></div>
        <div><tt><br>
          </tt></div>
        <div><tt>.e'u</tt></div>
        <div><tt>{.itkuile - &nbsp;x1 (quoted text/object) is unintelligibl=
e
            [for x2]}</tt></div>
        <div><tt>Now I wonder if there is any need in this word when
            {jimpe} does the same.</tt></div>
        <div><tt>The definition needs to be more specific.</tt></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
      That is possible, but quite terrible. You seem to be overlooking
      the joke (or I am seeing a joke where there is none). <br>
      .itkuile: x1 pertains to Ithkuil in aspect x2<br>
      <br>
      It's funny when used as "this is so complicated, I can't
      understand it", but defining it that way removes some of the
      metaphorical character from the expression.</tt></div></blockquote><d=
iv>I understood the joke. pe'i metaphorical expressions are possible in Loj=
ban but must be clearly defined</div><div>to prevent culture-specific misun=
derstanding.</div><div>In the Netherlands and Russia they say "It's Chinese=
 to me" in such situations.</div><div><br></div><div>And is there any conno=
tation of the Greeks, Greek alphabet or Greek culture when you say "It's Gr=
eek to me"?</div><div>I guess no.</div><div>Therefore I don't understand ho=
w we can define it as&nbsp;<font face=3D"monospace">x1 pertains to Ithkuil =
in aspect x2</font><br><font face=3D"monospace">but use it for a different =
thing.</font><br></div><div><font face=3D"monospace"><br></font></div><div>=
<font face=3D"monospace">"greek" and Greek are just two words for me.</font=
></div><div><font face=3D"monospace">As the last option I'd prefer</font></=
div><div><font face=3D"monospace">do'i me la .itkuil. pe'a ga'a mi</font></=
div><div><font face=3D"monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"monos=
pace">But I like your solution with "Greek in the second sense" for Lojban.=
</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace">Just build the full meaning of t=
he metaphor into it's definition and we are done.</font></div><div>&nbsp;</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex=
;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" t=
ext=3D"#000000"><tt> Of course, you'd get
      some laughs when someone looks it up expecting it to mean "x1
      pertains to Ithkuil [..]" only to find this joke-definition.
      Happens somewhat regularly with the many other joke-brivla when
      someone looks them up on IRC.<br>
      <br>
    </tt><tt>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i<br>
      <br>
    </tt>
    <pre cols=3D"72"><tt>--=20
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u=20
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla=20
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata</tt></pre>
  </div>

</blockquote>

<p></p>

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