Like homeomorphism of a mug and a torus. If yo= u slowly change the shape you'll get {kabri} out of {djine}. So where d= jine ends =A0and kabri starts?

On Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:44:37 PM UTC+4, clif= ford wrote:

As usual for English, the "It's all Greek to me" g= ets its boost from Shakespeare (Julius Ca= esar in the discussion about JC thrice refusing the crown), but duri= ng various situations other versions have been popular: "It's all = Dutch to me", "You might as well be talking Hottentot" and s= o on.=A0 The Shakespeare case has originally an anti-elitist component, too= (couldn't use plain old Latin, could he), which furthers the plot.=A0 = But the general pattern of blaming incomprehension on known of but unintell= igible language is pretty general.=A0 Ithkuil (I'm never sure I spell i= t right) certainly qualifies.=A0 But, of course, successful metaphors rely = on common cultural ties and -- despite the widespread pattern -- these may = be lacking here.=A0 The hearer may not know about Ithkuil or of it fabled (but real) complexity or may not recognize t= hat what is being talked about is clearly NOT a specimen of Ithkuil (there = was a cartoon once of a person confronted with some classic Greek inscripti= on and dismissing it by saying it is all Greek to him).=A0 We can, of cours= e, mark the usage as non-literal and force another (but what other?) readin= g.=A0 But that really does go against the whole idea of a metaphor and make= s Lojban out to be the kind of narrow, literal, robotic language that exter= nal critics take it to be (even Spock had a sense of humor, though a rather= elusive one).

From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de= >
To: lojban@googlegroups.com <= br> Sent: Thursday, July 26,= 2012 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I= t's Greek to me

Am 26.07.2012 06:58, schrieb Gleki Arxokuna:
> I understood the jok= e. pe'i metaphorical expressions are possible in Lojban but must be cle= arly defined
> to prevent culture-specific misunderstanding.

If you define a m= etaphor that way, it's not really a metaphor anymore. You only get the = full effect if .itkuil means the language and then say things like {xu di&#= 39;u .itkuile} to express your confusion. Of course metaphors are fine, and= when they are not obvious, you can mark them with pe'a.

> In the Netherlands and Russia they say "It's Chinese to m= e" in such situations.

In Germany, people say "das kommt m= ir spanisch vor" =3D "this seems spanish to me" to exress no= t-understanding or that something is odd. Using foreign languages in such m= etaphors is common all over the planet, so using .itkuil (or any other non-= lojban language, even though the comical effect is greater with .itkuil, it= being another conlang and known for its complexity) will do the job. Again, use pe'a or zo'o when you aren= 't sure people will get it.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
=
-- pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo<= br>
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google G= roups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegrou= ps.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups= .com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.co= m/group/lojban?hl=3Den.