Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:53641) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Sv0J7-0000B0-GG; Fri, 27 Jul 2012 23:15:25 -0700 Received: by yhoo21 with SMTP id o21sf4356691yho.16 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2012 23:15:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PJ2cQDerDJbr99hRE28H6Fek9Ou5RifYGsWeAUXvt2U=; b=EtLjmHn3UAsVKNirUdPBoqSTxtjMWy9CCHt2EKVhh9yKu8JbcNI9Ib5a6Rj7w/2HwM xVX0wfMG8z7atPplbBUHsZ5dPd0QPvJtv2lK5Zy/SOCLuAmSoOjvey9sR8AB+QZNX8B/ 8I4Szx4H/uOaaGeNCGFMUEcGmKjX59DZyCrjE= Received: by 10.68.237.163 with SMTP id vd3mr750625pbc.9.1343456114627; Fri, 27 Jul 2012 23:15:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.136.39 with SMTP id px7ls11301261pbb.1.gmail; Fri, 27 Jul 2012 23:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.232.230 with SMTP id tr6mr1157810pbc.16.1343456114032; Fri, 27 Jul 2012 23:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 23:15:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <201207271819.45914.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <6ec49d33-fc7d-4c8b-8422-9e99a21f3f1f@googlegroups.com> <5012C257.4050808@lojban.org> <201207271819.45914.phma@phma.optus.nu> Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban wall of complexity (beginner thoughts) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_269_25272274.1343456113080" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_269_25272274.1343456113080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Saturday, July 28, 2012 2:19:45 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Friday 27 July 2012 16:03:10 Bruno Durin wrote:=20 > > You and Pierre Arbat have greatly clarified the way to go. I just use= =20 > > whatever I like in lojban and my design will be evaluated through the= =20 > use=20 > > and feedback of other people.=20 > > This is something a bit new for a French native as we have a very stron= g=20 > > tradition of normalization by an authority (the French Academy dates=20 > back=20 > > to something like the 18th century if I remember well). As a recent=20 > > example, a lot of technical words these last 50 years are born in=20 > English=20 > > and the use of the English word have been officially banned and replace= d=20 > by=20 > > French substitutes (like "courriel" for "e-mail" because "mail" in=20 > French=20 > > is "courrier"). Of course not everybody uses them, I guess that people= =20 > with=20 > > no technical background are more inclined to use French equivalent that= =20 > > people that see the English terms at work or in the course of their=20 > hobby.=20 > > Anyway, thanks for the clarifications! I go back to the study of the=20 > > reference grammar...=20 > > I'm not a bat :)=20 > > I see English computer terms in Spanish sentences and it just sounds wron= g=20 > to=20 > me. I'd rather see "logicial" than "software". I've used "corriel" in=20 > Spanish=20 > with no problem. I've also used "vepecista" (mail-order seller), which I= =20 > had=20 > to explain, but the acronym "VPC" makes equally good sense in Spanish and= =20 > French.=20 > > There is an Icelandic academy, which tries hard to keep non-Germanic=20 > influences out of the language, but the word "f=EDll" (elephant) is from= =20 > Arabic. It entered the language in the Old Norse stage, so it's=20 > grandfathered=20 > in.=20 > > There is an authority of the Lojban language, namely the BPFK, but we're= =20 > currently concerned with updating the CLL, resolving inconsistencies,=20 > defining unclear cmavo, and figuring out exactly what word forms are=20 > valid,=20 > rather than forbidding words (on any basis other than phonotactic or=20 > morphological) or coining new terms.=20 > > My opinion, which I've broken a few times, is that fu'ivla should be take= n=20 > from:=20 > *The six source languages, e.g. makpapi (poppy) from Russian and English.= =20 > *Taxonomic names, e.g. tarksako or tarsako (depending on morphology)=20 > (dandelion), from the genus name.=20 > *Sounds, e.g. kuerporuile (whippoorwill) from the Spanish and English=20 > words,=20 > which are both imitative. (bois-pourri in French)=20 > Why from Spanish and English only? All languages have imitative words. *Local languages, e.g. turdunu (bullroarer) from some Australian language.= =20 > I=20 > tried "turndunu" first, but that's a type-3.=20 > > Pierre=20 > --=20 > sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera=20 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/mMAdQ819c1EJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_269_25272274.1343456113080 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, July 28, 2012 2:19:45 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:On Friday 27 July 2012 16:03:10 B= runo Durin wrote:
> You and Pierre Arbat have greatly clarified the way to go. I just = use
> whatever I like in lojban and my design will be evaluated through = the use
> and feedback of other people.
> This is something a bit new for a French native as we have a very = strong
> tradition of normalization by an authority (the French Academy dat= es back
> to something like the 18th century if I remember well). As a recen= t
> example, a lot of technical words these last 50 years are born in = English
> and the use of the English word have been officially banned and re= placed by
> French substitutes (like "courriel" for "e-mail" because "mail" in= French
> is "courrier"). Of course not everybody uses them, I guess that pe= ople with
> no technical background are more inclined to use French equivalent= that
> people that see the English terms at work or in the course of thei= r hobby.
> Anyway, thanks for the clarifications! I go back to the study of t= he
> reference grammar...

I'm not a bat :)

I see English computer terms in Spanish sentences and it just sounds wr= ong to=20
me. I'd rather see "logicial" than "software". I've used "corriel" in S= panish=20
with no problem. I've also used "vepecista" (mail-order seller), which = I had=20
to explain, but the acronym "VPC" makes equally good sense in Spanish a= nd=20
French.

There is an Icelandic academy, which tries hard to keep non-Germanic=20
influences out of the language, but the word "f=EDll" (elephant) is fro= m=20
Arabic. It entered the language in the Old Norse stage, so it's grandfa= thered=20
in.

There is an authority of the Lojban language, namely the BPFK, but we'r= e=20
currently concerned with updating the CLL, resolving inconsistencies,= =20
defining unclear cmavo, and figuring out exactly what word forms are va= lid,=20
rather than forbidding words (on any basis other than phonotactic or=20
morphological) or coining new terms.

My opinion, which I've broken a few times, is that fu'ivla should be ta= ken=20
from:
*The six source languages, e.g. makpapi (poppy) from Russian and Englis= h.
*Taxonomic names, e.g. tarksako or tarsako (depending on morphology)=20
(dandelion), from the genus name.
*Sounds, e.g. kuerporuile (whippoorwill) from the Spanish and English w= ords,=20
which are both imitative. (bois-pourri in French)
Why from Spanish and English only? All languages have= imitative words.

*Local languages, e.g. turdunu (bullroarer) from some Australian la= nguage. I=20
tried "turndunu" first, but that's a type-3.

Pierre
--=20
sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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