Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:42785) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Sv9Wm-0005rA-9q; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:06:08 -0700 Received: by yenl13 with SMTP id l13sf4780938yen.16 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=fgj1w7VScgnLUuwFgOiS5phZXJJzwMotpnDNYMzy7dY=; b=CfTGTDRmhx/GMYFmHyWiKL6xn4TVskVKedLIxJyBMjGviUThAxt9YNQNWMnlcwL+2e HzAlM+n13kaSy5seOFib6+XBvk1uRy65rJjN6X5x0NS7nFrTrU3VZZJNqYhushnKCC1m 4uNgG6SEFBuoBdBqAJsfuqeaTlU8dFE4Nr7tw= Received: by 10.52.71.36 with SMTP id r4mr580683vdu.3.1343491557704; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.239.208 with SMTP id kx16ls2894978vcb.8.gmail; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.71.36 with SMTP id r4mr580680vdu.3.1343491556427; Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:05:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruno Durin To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <201207271819.45914.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <6ec49d33-fc7d-4c8b-8422-9e99a21f3f1f@googlegroups.com> <5012C257.4050808@lojban.org> <201207271819.45914.phma@phma.optus.nu> Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban wall of complexity (beginner thoughts) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: bruno.durin@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bruno.durin@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=bruno.durin@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_474_197424.1343491555597" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_474_197424.1343491555597 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le samedi 28 juillet 2012 00:19:45 UTC+2, Pierre Abbat a =E9crit : > > On Friday 27 July 2012 16:03:10 Bruno Durin wrote:=20 > > You and Pierre Arbat have greatly clarified the way to go. I just use= =20 > > I'm not a bat :)=20 > > Sorry for misspelling your name! =20 > I see English computer terms in Spanish sentences and it just sounds wron= g=20 > to=20 > me. I'd rather see "logicial" than "software". I've used "corriel" in=20 > Spanish=20 > with no problem. I've also used "vepecista" (mail-order seller), which I= =20 > had=20 > to explain, but the acronym "VPC" makes equally good sense in Spanish and= =20 > French.=20 > > Sure that's opinions are going to differ greatly from one to another=20 person about this French names (and about somewhat artificial words imposed= =20 from an authority). I think the way the French worlds that I was talking about has been imposed= =20 look like we fear to overwhelmed by English culture and as if we were=20 defensive. When French culture was strong and noblemen (not sure that's the word, I=20 mean "people from aristocracy") used French words that became in English=20 the basis for a lot of cooked food (for example, veal (from "veau") instead= =20 of calf the living beast, pork (from "porc") instead of pig), there was not= =20 such a resistance from adopting the French sounding words. =20 > There is an Icelandic academy, which tries hard to keep non-Germanic=20 > influences out of the language, but the word "f=EDll" (elephant) is from= =20 > Arabic. It entered the language in the Old Norse stage, so it's=20 > grandfathered=20 > in.=20 > > Interesting example! I keep on thinking that such linguistic=20 "protectionism" only makes the language poorer. =20 > There is an authority of the Lojban language, namely the BPFK, but we're= =20 > currently concerned with updating the CLL, resolving inconsistencies,=20 > defining unclear cmavo, and figuring out exactly what word forms are=20 > valid,=20 > rather than forbidding words (on any basis other than phonotactic or=20 > morphological) or coining new terms.=20 > > My opinion, which I've broken a few times, is that fu'ivla should be take= n=20 > from:=20 > *The six source languages, e.g. makpapi (poppy) from Russian and English.= =20 > *Taxonomic names, e.g. tarksako or tarsako (depending on morphology)=20 > (dandelion), from the genus name.=20 > *Sounds, e.g. kuerporuile (whippoorwill) from the Spanish and English=20 > words,=20 > which are both imitative. (bois-pourri in French)=20 > *Local languages, e.g. turdunu (bullroarer) from some Australian language= .=20 > I=20 > tried "turndunu" first, but that's a type-3.=20 > > That's exactly the kind of info that is very useful for me, Thanks a lot!= =20 Here are 4 rules that I can apply to build words in lojban, and I'll stick= =20 to them until I know enough to have an opinion about them. Bruno Pierre=20 > --=20 > sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera=20 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/1-23O-voHKQJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_474_197424.1343491555597 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Le samedi 28 juillet 2012 00:19:45 UTC+2, Pierre Abbat a =E9crit&nb= sp;:
On Friday 27 July 2012 16:= 03:10 Bruno Durin wrote:
> You and Pierre Arbat have greatly clarified the way to go. I just = use

I'm not a bat :)

Sorry for misspelling your name!
 
I see English computer terms= in Spanish sentences and it just sounds wrong to=20
me. I'd rather see "logicial" than "software". I've used "corriel" in S= panish=20
with no problem. I've also used "vepecista" (mail-order seller), which = I had=20
to explain, but the acronym "VPC" makes equally good sense in Spanish a= nd=20
French.

Sure that's opinions are going to differ greatly from= one to another person about this French names (and about somewhat artifici= al words imposed from an authority).
I think the way the French w= orlds that I was talking about has been imposed look like we fear to overwh= elmed by English culture and as if we were defensive.
When French= culture was strong and noblemen (not sure that's the word, I mean "people = from aristocracy") used French words that became in English the basis for a= lot of cooked food (for example, veal (from "veau") instead of calf the li= ving beast, pork (from "porc") instead of pig), there was not such a resist= ance from adopting the French sounding words.
 
There is an Icelandic academy, which = tries hard to keep non-Germanic=20
influences out of the language, but the word "f=EDll" (elephant) is fro= m=20
Arabic. It entered the language in the Old Norse stage, so it's grandfa= thered=20
in.

Interesting example! I keep on thinking that such lin= guistic "protectionism" only makes the language poorer.
 
There is an authority of th= e Lojban language, namely the BPFK, but we're=20
currently concerned with updating the CLL, resolving inconsistencies,= =20
defining unclear cmavo, and figuring out exactly what word forms are va= lid,=20
rather than forbidding words (on any basis other than phonotactic or=20
morphological) or coining new terms.

My opinion, which I've broken a few times, is that fu'ivla should be ta= ken=20
from:
*The six source languages, e.g. makpapi (poppy) from Russian and Englis= h.
*Taxonomic names, e.g. tarksako or tarsako (depending on morphology)=20
(dandelion), from the genus name.
*Sounds, e.g. kuerporuile (whippoorwill) from the Spanish and English w= ords,=20
which are both imitative. (bois-pourri in French)
*Local languages, e.g. turdunu (bullroarer) from some Australian langua= ge. I=20
tried "turndunu" first, but that's a type-3.


That's exactly the kind of info that i= s very useful for me, Thanks a lot! Here are 4 rules that I can apply to bu= ild words in lojban, and I'll stick to them until I know enough to have an = opinion about them.

Bruno

Pierre
--=20
sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera

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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/1-= 23O-voHKQJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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