Received: from mail-qa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]:41964)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCYv9WABRoEUFiibw@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1SvW19-0005lT-BB; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:07:15 -0700
Received: by qadb10 with SMTP id b10sf1586742qad.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:06:48 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id
         :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:reply-to
         :subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:precedence:mailing-list:list-id
         :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=c5ZdL/nYyxA1Dk+qKttQz7BNWlFj2fjU08e3/aVL/so=;
        b=4JO3NPjvFzQsMpk4Rpnro3uVBYK9oP7itMTXHydFJfEweYd2qENgchXrZBr/2iCTvW
         1ResybYhNuUT5Lr6M//UVf5djYCmAzFtKww/cyL1b5IaIb/kQdrIOhHCV13yWVeOm3yr
         inoobNwzXIaUv54bJNOmOzIgpoPRd2LEM85jY=
Received: by 10.52.66.137 with SMTP id f9mr704309vdt.14.1343578008569;
        Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:06:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.52.100.72 with SMTP id ew8ls3191048vdb.9.gmail; Sun, 29 Jul
 2012 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.33.1 with SMTP id n1mr12347284vdi.4.1343578007195;
        Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.33.1 with SMTP id n1mr12347283vdi.4.1343578007182;
        Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nm4-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm4-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com. [98.139.213.129])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dy2si1044023vdb.1.2012.07.29.09.06.47
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.213.129 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.213.129;
Received: from [98.139.212.151] by nm4.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2012 16:06:46 -0000
Received: from [68.142.200.226] by tm8.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2012 16:06:46 -0000
Received: from [66.94.237.105] by t7.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2012 16:06:46 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1010.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2012 16:06:46 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 106732.87413.bm@omp1010.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 92866 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Jul 2012 16:06:45 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: Xn0kmRMVM1k8qQkYyGg9JyT7xzTnZ_t4pV4DD.Erczp6rzK
 jKA3lfyFiod8vXm1N2HP1EN9ITnNvEBSUmsVQap9ql5JlOvERpWF1akWXhJh
 RUbjjhu.9fnaC8M47X1nvtu2mr0FQADeSNOTmK6KRHgWTE9AXDuxQWOGKKj7
 LmCCWeqLkzzGYjEUUPero0SMrMPN4hD9Js0ceh70P53vxPioAd4xBF8XiqGB
 KUEUo.LZYoZVumjiZ498e.vF8OQiBQmpxxGLlwWA7kFmcS9klG252AoZ3XHs
 UCnNRN6Bg6eiAMP5T4QfqhNna8KCpnckTE4MxdTVpV65Zt2mxq7bil5hRWmz
 YgFkLsEHpx5yWLMyo5v9Wgk4CAwgrqejHq5cUPNbPeNXX3CPEXdLC0jc7EZO
 WVQCSimaaetassLMKzB8FrIVCOKp4J5XguG2mdlM2JlUK5GhwE42mP2WMpRs
 2OI_zoHOBZTLf8kJv3vPXJUA6ks8g0QKhy3yYbKawlYGQLdY7Izz8ltpJ7IO
 WdUG3vY2mQJSOybT4Je_g8zaqyKO1RJZ5MmL9cFBaK3rqN.XXfT7cFjl_EeE
 MAzXpq5hUZXEVEJXy8xKN6sxNO72rTCsK_VCtrMSmPuMP
Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:06:45 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233
References: <f9e54e8e-3a28-4c2c-8d82-aa8dd744565b@googlegroups.com> <CAO7tK2c83QeO-T+M6cux6r=6=72L0Xhs1TiHe0xOc9pTyUE7-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1343578005.87926.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 09:06:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] again about "out of"
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2c83QeO-T+M6cux6r=6=72L0Xhs1TiHe0xOc9pTyUE7-Q@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates
 98.139.213.129 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass
 (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1412092350-1826235204-1343578005=:87926"
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

---1412092350-1826235204-1343578005=:87926
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I worry a bit about treating "out of" as a unit, separate from the verbs in=
volved: "made out of" is very different from either "get out of" or from "g=
o out of" or even from "be out of" in sevreal of its meanings.=A0 And examp=
les could multiply, not much of a common even very general meaning.

________________________________
 From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] again about "out of"
=20
On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
<gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The list is largely unimportant for lojbanists. But look at #22. "out of"=
 is
> among first 22 most frequent words of the language!
> Seems like a possible flaw in lojban for not having such a short word.
> Hopefully "el" might have several meanings including simple {to'o}.
> Still...
[...]
> 22 EL (out of)

Yes, the Esperanto preposition "el" has a much wider meaning than the
spatial "out of", it is also used for a more abstract or general
origin or provenance: "li estas el Francio" (he's from France), "krono
el floroj" (a crown of flowers), "unu el ili" (one of them).

For "out of" as opposite of "into" in Lojban I suggest "to'o ne'i":

lo gerku cu bajra to'o ne'i lo zdani
"The dog runs out of the house."

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.


---1412092350-1826235204-1343578005=:87926
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span><span styl=
e=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;">I worry a bit abou=
t </span>treating "out of" as a unit, separate from the verbs involved: "ma=
de out of" is very different from either "get out of" or from "go out of" o=
r even from "be out of" in sevreal of its meanings.&nbsp; And examples coul=
d multiply, not much of a common even very general meaning.</span></div><di=
v style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size:=
 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif=
; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <hr=
 size=3D"1">  <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Jorge L=
lamb=EDas &lt;jjllambias@gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: b=
old;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-we=
ight:
 bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, July 29, 2012 10:03 AM<br> <b><span style=
=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] again about "out o=
f"<br> </font> </div> <br>
On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Gleki Arxokuna<br>&lt;<a ymailto=3D"mailto=
:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gle=
ki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; The list is largely =
unimportant for lojbanists. But look at #22. "out of" is<br>&gt; among firs=
t 22 most frequent words of the language!<br>&gt; Seems like a possible fla=
w in lojban for not having such a short word.<br>&gt; Hopefully "el" might =
have several meanings including simple {to'o}.<br>&gt; Still...<br>[...]<br=
>&gt; 22 EL (out of)<br><br>Yes, the Esperanto preposition "el" has a much =
wider meaning than the<br>spatial "out of", it is also used for a more abst=
ract or general<br>origin or provenance: "li estas el Francio" (he's from F=
rance), "krono<br>el floroj" (a crown of flowers), "unu el ili" (one of the=
m).<br><br>For "out of" as opposite of "into" in Lojban I suggest "to'o ne'=
i":<br><br>lo gerku cu bajra to'o ne'i lo zdani<br>"The dog runs out of
 the house."<br><br>mu'o mi'e xorxes<br><br>-- <br>You received this messag=
e because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To pos=
t to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com=
" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>T=
o unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:un=
subscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">un=
subscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>For more options, visit this group at ht=
tp://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br><br><br><br> </div> </div> =
 </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



---1412092350-1826235204-1343578005=:87926--