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[69.132.101.103]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id u67si57997yhi.7.2012.07.31.07.38.55; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 07:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 69.132.101.103 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=69.132.101.103; Received: from ip6-localhost (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 598BF20877 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:38:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Feasability of native speakers Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:38:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <98910038-bfdf-4f09-939a-cd265ea8d6e6@n16g2000vbn.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <98910038-bfdf-4f09-939a-cd265ea8d6e6@n16g2000vbn.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201207311038.52523.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 69.132.101.103 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / On Sunday 29 July 2012 13:34:19 la vinsent. wrote: > coi rodo, > > If, one day, a lojban speaker decides that his child's first > language will be lojban, would the child even be able to learn it > properly? Adults can learn lojban because they were taught the > concepts within it that are not present in natural languages. A child > on the other hand learns language in a different way. Based on > listening to other speakers, the child can decipher the grammar, > vocabulary, phonology, etc of a language. However, this is > probably(I'm not sure, though) because human languages all share > common traits that are hardwired into our language centers. What > these hardwired linguistic features are, if they exist, is unknown. > Even though we don't know what these traits are, I reckon that lojban > probably breaks a few linguistic mental rules and thus cannot be > acquired by individual without having learned a naturalistic > language(this can include conlangs such as Esperanto) first. I doubt > that it could be the first language of anyone, but I, of course, could > be mistaken. These are just my thoughts. Go visit Kelly and Frances in a couple of years :) A good idea what these hardwired linguistic features are can be gotten by comparing typologies of different languages around the world. There's a list of over a hundred features, with maps of where they're found, at wals.info. I once went down a list of linguistic universals, and while many of them were hard to apply (no inflections of verbs, no case affixes on nouns, adjectives do not exist, ...), the only clear violation I found was the order of demonstrative, number, and modifier when they're all on the same side of the word being modified. The normal order is "these three blue houses" or "houses blue three these" or "houses these three blue", that is, the number is between the demonstrative and the modifier. The Lojban order is "le ci vi blanu zdani", because "vi" is a spatial tense marker, a kind of word that does not exist in most languages. Pierre -- Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.