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Subject: Re: [lojban] racli/ralci
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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This is basically not fixable without moving the problem somewhere else.
It's messy because there are so many distinct collision rules, but try
going through and computing how many gismu can technically exist at the
same time. It's not as big a number as you'd think. Without getting into
the various rules introduced later in the CLL (which were meant to reduce
problems like these), the number is still only around 22,000. Here's a way
to get started:
5 vowels
17 consonants
48 initial clusters
{11 unvoiced consonants, 10 voiced consonants, (m, l, n, and r get double
counted) 9 "special exceptions": cs sc jz zj cx kx xc xk mz are all
forbidden, and no double consonants}->191 internal clusters
gives exactly 20315 gimtai. This avoids only collisions of final vowels,
and permits every other apparent "collision", including all those listed in
the CLL. <http://dag.github.com/cll/4/14/> These restrictions, to within a
very crude approximation, probably divide the number given above by
something between 2 and 3, giving a number between 6700 and 10000, probably
closer to the former given that most of the collisions involve two letters.
This is honestly pretty tight, to fit in ~1300 words.

I agree with you, though, that some fiddling with the gimste, doing things
like changing final vowels to move further away from the source languages
to avoid *some* collisions would probably have been for the best. Too late
now, of course.

An interesting computation: assuming every *combination* of 2 vowels and 3
consonants can serve as exactly one gismu (which lets words differ only in
their final vowel; not doing so makes the current number of gismu just *
barely* fit), you get 6800 possible words. Almost all such combinations
work, too: ignoring the 9 special exceptions, any 2 vowels obviously work,
and any group of 3 consonants will have at least 2 with have the same
voicing. It might be interesting to make up a hypothetical gimste subject
to this restriction and none of the restrictions I linked (but still the
voicing rules and the special exceptions).

mu'o mi'e la latro'a no'u la latros


On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> I do not like these two words. They are both two (defined) place gismu,
> they have very different meanings, and they differ ONLY in the order of c
> and l, which is problematic for people with dyslexia. I feel they should at
> least end with a different vowel. I would be very annoyed if I was to
> accidentally say for example that because glass breaks when hit with a
> hammer, it is mentally sound.
>
> Just felt like sharing.
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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This is basically not fixable without moving the problem somewhere else. It=
&#39;s messy because there are so many distinct collision rules, but try go=
ing through and computing how many gismu can technically exist at the same =
time. It&#39;s not as big a number as you&#39;d think. Without getting into=
 the various rules introduced later in the CLL (which were meant to reduce =
problems like these), the number is still only around 22,000. Here&#39;s a =
way to get started:<br>
5 vowels<br>17 consonants<br>48 initial clusters<br>{11 unvoiced consonants=
, 10 voiced consonants, (m, l, n, and r get double counted) 9 &quot;special=
 exceptions&quot;: cs sc jz zj cx kx xc xk mz are all forbidden, and no dou=
ble consonants}-&gt;191 internal clusters<br>
gives exactly 20315 gimtai. This avoids only collisions of final vowels, an=
d permits every other apparent &quot;collision&quot;, including all those l=
isted <a href=3D"http://dag.github.com/cll/4/14/">in the CLL.</a> These res=
trictions, to within a very crude approximation, probably divide the number=
 given above by something between 2 and 3, giving a number between 6700 and=
 10000, probably closer to the former given that most of the collisions inv=
olve two letters. This is honestly pretty tight, to fit in ~1300 words. <br=
>
<br>I agree with you, though, that some fiddling with the gimste, doing thi=
ngs like changing final vowels to move further away from the source languag=
es to avoid <i>some</i> collisions would probably have been for the best. T=
oo late now, of course.<br>
<br>An interesting computation: assuming every <i>combination</i> of 2 vowe=
ls and 3 consonants can serve as exactly one gismu (which lets words differ=
 only in their final vowel; not doing so makes the current number of gismu =
just <i>barely</i> fit), you get 6800 possible words. Almost all such combi=
nations work, too: ignoring the 9 special exceptions, any 2 vowels obviousl=
y work, and any group of 3 consonants will have at least 2 with have the sa=
me voicing. It might be interesting to make up a hypothetical gimste subjec=
t to this restriction and none of the restrictions I linked (but still the =
voicing rules and the special exceptions).<br>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a no&#39;u la latros<br><br><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Jonathan Jones <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonu=
s@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I do not like these two words. They are both=
 two (defined) place gismu, they have very different meanings, and they dif=
fer ONLY in the order of c and l, which is problematic for people with dysl=
exia. I feel they should at least end with a different vowel. I would be ve=
ry annoyed if I was to accidentally say for example that because glass brea=
ks when hit with a hammer, it is mentally sound.<br>

<br>Just felt like sharing.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><=
br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai=
 ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to=
 the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

<br>

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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